Shared Trauma in the COVID19 Pandemic: Interview with Carol Tosone, Ph.D.

[Episode 126] In today's episode of the Social Work Podcast I speak with Carol Tosone, Ph.D., Professor of Social Work and Director, DSW Program in Clinical Social Work at NYU's Silver School of Social Work.

Carol and I spoke on April 1, 2020 about her insights into the COVID-19 pandemic, psychotherapy, technology and shared trauma. Because of everything that was happening in the world, it took me nearly 5 weeks to publish the episode. Although five weeks is a quick turnaround for me, it was an eternity in an environment where life was changing daily.

I was excited to speak with Carol. On September 11, 2014, I published an episode with her about the concept of "shared trauma." This episode, along with the first interview I did with her in December 2009 on psychoanalytic social work, are some of the most widely assigned episodes in schools of social work.

In today's episode we talked about how the concept of shared trauma can help us to understand what's going on in a global pandemic, how we can think about the role of technology-mediated services, and what social workers can do to care for themselves while caring for others.


Download MP3 [22:22]

Therapists as Writers: Interview with Lori Gottlieb

[Episode 124] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is an interview with Lori Gottlieb - NY Times best-selling author, advice columnist for The Atlantic, and therapist. We talked about how her experience as a writer influences her work as a therapist, and how her therapy informs her writing. We talked about how she takes a client’s story out of the therapy room and turns it into something that therapists can appreciate, and non-therapists can get excited about. Lori reads from her 2019 New York Times bestseller and Amazon Best Book of April 2019, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. We ended our conversation talking about how difficult and necessary it is for therapists to be the client.



Download MP3 [41:04]

Using simulation to teach holistic competence: Interview with Marion Bogo and Toula Kourgiantakis

[120] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is an interview with Marion Bogo and Toula Kourgiantakis from the University of Toronto Factor-Inwentash Faculty of Social Work. We talk about using simulation in social work education. In Episode 94, I spoke with Marion and Mary Rawlings about simulation as part of standardized clinical examinations (OSCE).

Today's interview focuses on how simulation can be used to teach holistic competence. They talked about how in the late 2000s, they recognized that there were several problems with the existing model of teaching students practice skills. Their solution was to simulate real-world problems so that students could practice specific skills, get feedback, and improve their practice. In today's episode,  Marion and Toula detail the steps necessary for creating simulations, how they involved field supervisors in the development of client simulations, the iterative nature of improving the simulations over time, and an innovative approach to help students learn knowledge and skills through practice and feedback they call "Practice Friday".

Download MP3 [29:24]

Death and Grief in the Digital Age: Interview with Carla Sofka, Ph.D.

[Episode 109] Today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast is about Death and Grief in the Digital Age. I spoke with Dr. Carla Sofka, professor of Social Work at Siena College. Dr. Sofka has been studying and writing about the intersection of technology and death and grief since the earliest days of the world wide web. Her edited 2012 text, Dying, Death and Grief in an Online Universe, looks at how changes in communication technology have revolutionized the field of thanatology.

In today’s episode we talk about the role of social media in how, why, where and when, who we grieve. She shares stories of people whose loved ones have died, only to find out that because of social media they are the last to know. Carla provides some digital literacy around death and grief in the digital age. She talks about social media posts as death notifications, about establishing digital advance directives and thinking about our digital dust.

She talks about STUG reactions which are Sudden Temporary Upsurges of Grief. I had never heard of a STUG reaction, but I actually had one during our conversation. You’ll hear me talk about college friend of mine who died several years ago and during the interview start to tear up as I recalled getting a Facebook notification that it was her birthday.  We then talked about internet ghosts, memorial pages, memorial trolls, how and when people should respond to death notices online and what that means for the loved ones. She suggests that just as we provide sex education to kids, we should be providing death education.  She also recommends including technology assessment in the standard biopsychosocialspiritual assessment. We ended our conversation talking about resources for mental health professionals who want to learn more.

Download MP3 [34:14]

A #ZeroSuicide World: Interview with David W. Covington, LPC, MBA

[Episode 106] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is about a healthcare initiative called Zero Suicide.  In today’s episode, I spoke with David W. Covington, LPC, MBA who, along with Mike Hogan, developed the Zero Suicide initiative. We talked about how he went from clinician to health care executive, from running a crisis service to organizing Zero Suicide initiatives around the world. We talked about what Zero Suicide means for providers and health care leaders and ended with information about how you can get your healthcare organization involved in Zero Suicide.

• Zero Suicide: http://zerosuicide.sprc.org
• David's website  https://davidwcovington.com/
• Twitter
• David W. Covington: https://twitter.com/davidwcovington
• #ZeroSuicide: https://twitter.com/zerosuicide_org 
• Zero Suicide Intitute: https://twitter.com/ZSInstitute

Download MP3 [54:49]


So why should social workers care about Zero Suicide?

• Zero Suicide fits social work values. Zero suicide can only happen in a culture where people are encouraged to reach for the moon – that is no suicide, but are not punished for falling short. This idea of a “just culture” comes from Henry Ford Health System’s “Perfect Depression Care.” 
• Zero Suicide can’t happen without social workers. Social workers provide more mental health services than all other professions combined. Social workers are team players and Zero Suicide is inherently interprofessional. 
• Social workers are advocates. What if health care organizations use best practices, but those best practices haven’t been developed with diverse racial and ethnic groups, or don’t into account complex medical or trauma histories? What if Zero Suicide means that health care organizations have to spend more on training and staffing? Who will advocate for consumers if those costs are passed along to consumers rather than investors? Social workers have a professional responsibility to be involved in those conversations.   
• Social workers are trained to identify and respond to issues at the practice – the micro, and policy – the macro – level. Well guess what – ZeroSuicide is like the holy grail of micro-macro integration: it requires coordinated changes in values, beliefs, and practices at the provider- and system-level. David will talk more about this during the interview, but in plain English it means that as a social worker I have to believe that suicide is preventable, know how to assess, intervene, and coordinate care, and trust that my organization will have my back. At a systems level, health care organizations have to make a multi-year commitment of time and resources to reduce suicide deaths, train and support clinical and non-clinical staff, screen and assess everyone in the system, and use data-driven quality improvement.  It can’t work without changes at the micro and macro level.

Private Practice for Social Workers: Interview with Dr. Julie Hanks, LCSW

[Episode 100] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is about private practice. My guest, Dr. Julie Hanks, LCSW is the founder and executive director of Wasatch Family Therapy. She is a columnist at HealthyWay.com, Answers.com, and PsychCentral where she writes about private practice. She seems to be on speed dial for national media outlets like the Wall Street Journal, Market Watch, HuffingtonPost Live, and magazines like Cosmopolitan, Health, Health and dozens of others. Dr. Hanks has developed a 6-week e-course called Rock the Media School which is designed to help health and mental health practitioners build their online presence through media interviews, blogging, and building an engaged social media following. Get details at RockTheMediaSchool.com. She is the author of the 2016 book, The Assertiveness Guide for Women: How to Communicate Your Needs, Set Healthy Boundaries, and Transform Your Relationships

Download MP3 [52:33]


In today's interview, Julie talks about key ingredients for a successful private practice including:

• identifying your "big message;" 
• building relationships online and offline; 
• knowing what you're good at and outsourcing what you're not good at; and 
• reconciling "social work" with "private practice." 

We end our conversation with information about resources for social workers who want to start or build a private practice

Becoming a Clinical Social Worker: Interview with Dr. Danna Bodenheimer

[Episode 99] Today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast is about becoming a clinical social worker. My guest, Dr. Danna Bodenheimer, is the author of Real World Clinical Social Work: Find Your Voice and Find Your Way published by New Social Worker Press.


Download MP3 [35:48]

In today's interview Danna and I talk about what makes a social worker a clinical social worker, what distinguishes a good from a bad clinical social worker, the one essential thing that all social workers bring to supervision, and the role of narcissism, observing ego, transference, counter-transference and the real relationship in clinical social work. We end with a discussion of money and how social workers need to earn enough so they can be present with their clients.

@socworkpodcast Holy #99 podcast. LOVED Danna Bodenheimer's interview. Buying the book ASAP. Thank you.

— Lyndsay (@Wilshawl) November 10, 2015

Cognitive Enhancement Therapy for Schizophrenia: Interview with Shaun Eack, Ph.D.

[Episode 98] Today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast is about Cognitive Enhancement Therapy (Eack, 2012) - a relatively new approach to addressing some of the most persistent and intractable problems faced by people with schizophrenia. In order to learn more CET, I spoke with Shaun Eack, Ph.D. Dr. Eack has been involved in most of the clinical research on CET. He is the David E. Epperson Associate Professor of Social Work and Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh, and the director of the ASCEND Program, which stands for "Advanced Support and Cognitive Enhancement for Neurodevelopmental Disorders.
Download MP3 [36:08]

I spoke with Shaun at the 2015 Society for Social Work and Research conference. In our interview, Shaun talks about the development of CET, the computer exercises and group therapy - the two components of the treatment, some amazing research findings, and how social workers can get trained in CET.

Attachment-Based Family Therapy (ABFT) for Depressed and Suicidal Youth: Interview with Guy Diamond, Ph.D., and Suzanne Levy, Ph.D.

[Episode 96] In today's Social Work Podcast I speak with two of the three developers of Attachment-based Family Therapy (ABFT), Guy S. Diamond, Ph.D. and Suzanne Levy, Ph.D. The third developer Gary M. Diamond (no relation to Guy Diamond) lives in Israel and was unavailable for the interview.

ABFT is the only family-based psychotherapy with empirical support for reducing suicidal ideation in youth. In today's interview, Dr. Diamond and Dr. Levy discuss the theory and practice of Attachment-Based Family Therapy. Dr. Diamond mostly covers theory and concepts, and Dr. Levy addresses the question of "what does the therapist actually do in the therapy room."

Download MP3 [50:36]


If you're interested in learning more about ABFT, you can buy the treatment manual Attachment Based Family Therapy for Depressed Adolescents, watch a free webinar http://youtu.be/KcwHznzq-S4, or attend a workshop (details on their website: http://drexel.edu/familyintervention/attachment-based-family-therapy/overview/)

ABFT is listed on the National Registry of Evidence-based Programs and Practices, also referred to as NREPP. According to NREPP, 

"Attachment-Based Family Therapy (ABFT) is a treatment for adolescents ages 12-18 that is designed to treat clinically diagnosed major depressive disorder, eliminate suicidal ideation, and reduce dispositional anxiety. The model is based on an interpersonal theory of depression, which proposes that the quality of family relationships may precipitate, exacerbate, or prevent depression and suicidal ideation. In this model, ruptures in family relationships, such as those due to abandonment, neglect, or abuse or a harsh and negative parenting environment, influence the development of adolescent depression. Families with these attachment ruptures lack the normative secure base and safe haven context needed for an adolescent's healthy development, including the development of emotion regulation and problem-solving skills. These adolescents may experience depression resulting from the attachment ruptures themselves or from their inability to turn to the family for support in the face of trauma outside the home. ABFT aims to strengthen or repair parent-adolescent attachment bonds and improve family communication. As the normative secure base is restored, parents become a resource to help the adolescent cope with stress, experience competency, and explore autonomy. 

ABFT is typically delivered in 60- to 90-minute sessions conducted weekly for 12-16 weeks. Treatment follows a semistructured protocol consisting of five sequential therapy tasks, each of which has clearly outlined processes and goals:

1. Task 1: The Relational Reframe Task, with the adolescent and parents (or parent) together, sets the foundation of the therapy. After an assessment of the history and nature of the depression, the therapist focuses on relational ruptures. This shift pivots on the therapeutic question, "When you feel so depressed or suicidal, why don't you go to your parents for help?" The progression of this conversation leads parents and the adolescent to agree that improving the quality of their relationship would be a good starting point for treatment.
2. Task 2: The Adolescent Alliance Task, with the adolescent alone, identifies relational ruptures in the family and links them to the depression. The adolescent is encouraged and prepared to discuss these often avoided feelings and memories with his or her parents.
3. Task 3: The Parent Alliance Task, with the parents alone, explores their current stressors and their own history of attachment disappointments. These conversations activate parental caregiving instincts to behaviorally and emotionally protect their child, which helps motivate parents to learn and use new attachment-promoting parenting skills.
4. Task 4: The Attachment Task, with the adolescent and parents together, creates an opportunity for the adolescent to directly express his or her thoughts and feelings about past and current relational injustices. Rather than defending themselves, parents help the adolescent fully express and explore these emotionally charged topics. This conversation helps the adolescent work through trauma, address negative patterns in the relationship, and practice new conflict resolution and emotion regulation skills.
5. Task 5: The Autonomy Task, with the adolescent and parents together, helps consolidate the new secure base. In solving day-to-day problems, parents provide support and expectations and the adolescent seeks to develop autonomy while remaining appropriately attached to his or her parents." (http://legacy.nreppadmin.net/ViewIntervention.aspx?id=314)

Objective Structured Clinical Examination (OSCE) Adapted for Social Work: Interview with Marion Bogo and Mary Rawlings

[Episode 94] Today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast is on Objective Structured Clinical Examination (OSCE) for social work. My guests, Marion Bogo and Mary Rawlings, and their co-authors Ellen Katz and Carmen Logie, are pioneers in the development, implementation, and evaluation of OSCE adapted for social work.


The audience for today's episode is social work faculty, specifically practice instructors who are interested in learning more about how to objectively evaluate their student's skills. Today's episode reviews the origins of OSCE adapted for social work, how it is implemented in different types of social work programs, some findings from the research that has been conducted on OSCE, and some recommendations for faculty who are interested in learning more about this approach.

Disclosure: I served as a CSWE Council on Publications liason with Marion Bogo for the text Using Simulation in Assessment and Teaching: OSCE Adapted for Social Work (Objective Structured Clinical Examination). 

Shared Trauma: Interview with Carol Tosone, Ph.D.

[Episode 91] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is about shared trauma, one in which the provider and client experienced the same traumatic event simultaneously. If you're not familiar with the concept of shared trauma, no worries. It is a relatively new concept, but one that has been experienced as long as there have been helpers and... helpees.

In order to better understand shared trauma, I spoke with Dr. Carol Tosone, one of a handful of scholars whose writings and research have defined shared trauma. Dr. Tosone is Associate Professor at New York University Silver School of Social Work. She is a Distinguished Scholar in Social Work in the National Academies of Practice in Washington, D.C.

In today's episode, Dr. Tosone unpacks the concept of shared trauma. She uses her personal experience of being in a therapy session on September 11, 2001, when the first plane flew over her building, and how sharing the trauma of 9/11 with her client affected her professional and personal life. During our conversation she answered many questions: How does a concurrent experience of the same traumatic event as your client affect the treatment relationship? In what ways is it beneficial to the treatment relationship? How do you know when it is detrimental? We end our conversation with recommendations for practitioners.

Beginnings, Middles, and Ends: Stories about Social Work from Ogden Rogers, Ph.D.

[Episode 87] In today's social work podcast, we're looking at the beginning, middle, and end of social work. No, this is not an apocalyptic tale of burning towers of progress notes and zombie utilization managers... although that does sound kind of interesting. No. Today’s episode is much more innocent than that. Ask any social worker, first year undergrad or emeritus professor, “what are the most basic phases of social work?” They will tell you: beginning, middle, and end. In today's Social Work Podcast we hear excerpts from a collection of poems and short stories called Beginnings, Middles & Ends: Sideways Stories on the Art & Soul of Social Work, written by Ogden W. Rogers, Ph.D., LCSW, ACSW, Professor and Chair of the Department of Social Work at The University of Wisconsin-River Falls, and published in 2013 by White Hat Communications. Ogden has written a beautiful little collection of stories from his 30 years of social work experience. Of the 99 stories in his collection, we’ll hear six, two each from Beginnings, Middles, and Ends. 

Similarities and Differences between Social Work in the United States and the United Kingdom: Interview with David Niven

[Episode 85] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast explores the similarities and differences between social work in the United States and the United Kingdom. I spoke with British social worker and podcaster, David Niven. David is the former National Chair of the British Association of Social Workers (BASW). He has over 30 years national and international experience in the field of social welfare and is recognized as an independent expert on matters of child protection and parenting. He is the founder and host of the Social World Podcast (www.socialworldpodcast.com).

There are many similarities between social work in the USA and the UK, but there are a couple of important differences. One of the biggest differences is that in the UK child and family social workers serve as child protection workers, whereas in the USA child protection and social work are separate professions.

Note: David interviewed me in November 2013 about cyberbullying and youth suicide for his podcast series. You can hear that episode here: http://socialworldpodcast.com/jonathan-singer-interview/

Identifying and Responding to Sex-Trafficking Victims in Social Service Settings: Interview with Rebecca J. Macy, Ph.D.

[Episode 81] In today's social work podcast I spoke with Rebecca J. Macy, Ph.D., ACSW, LCSW. Rebecca is the L. Richardson Preyer Distinguished Chair for Strengthening Families and the Associate Dean for Academic Affairs at the UNC at Chapel Hill School of Social Work.

I started our conversation asking Rebecca how she became interested in identification of sex trafficking victims in human service delivery. Most of our conversation focused on how to identify and respond to victims of sex trafficking. We talked about the interdisciplinary nature of sex trafficking; how it involves representatives from law, medicine, social services, and how social workers can and should take the lead in coordinating efforts to help victims. And, as is the custom, we ended our conversation with resources for social workers, the Polaris project in particular. Rebecca was kind enough to send me a list of references and resources that I have posted to the socialworkpodcast.com website.

Since 2004 there has been a 150% increase in the number of searches for the term "sex trafficking." During the same period, there has been no appreciable change in the number of searches for the terms "modern day slavery" or "labor trafficking."

Perinatal Loss: Interview with Sarah Kye Price, Ph.D.

[Episode 79] Today's Social Work Podcast is on perinatal loss. Perinatal loss includes ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (which most people call miscarriage), late-pregnancy loss or stillbirth, and neonatal or newborn death.

In today's episode, I spoke with one of the profession's leading scholars and experts on perinatal loss, associate professor of social work at Virginia Commonwealth University, Dr. Sarah Kye Price.


We talked why it is important to do a thorough assessment of pregnancy and pregnancy-related loss during a biopsychosocialspiritual assessment. She talked about the importance of allowing mothers / parents to tell their story. She pointed out that, although no loss is worse than any other, there are different intensities and needs depending on the loss.  She also noted that families in which there was a perinatal loss, there can also be growth. We talked about the different types of interventions and treatment approaches for individuals and families who experience perinatal loss. We ended our conversation with resources for people interested in learning more.

Social Workers in Court: Interview with Allan Barsky, JD, MSW, PhD

[Episode 76] In today’s interview, Allan and I talked about what it means for a social worker to be “court ready,” especially for social workers whose jobs do not typically involve going to court. We talked about the difference between forensic social workers and social workers who have to appear in court. Allan talked about the difference between client confidentiality and client privilege, between being a witness and an expert witness, and between preparing for legal proceedings and disciplinary proceedings. He gave some pointers on how social workers should respond to a subpoena. I asked him about what for many clinicians is the most stressful part of going to court - examination and cross-examination. We talked about how social workers can prepare for it, including some strategies for dealing with “tough questions” during a cross-examination. We ended our conversation with Allan providing some resources for social workers who want to know more. If you want to find additional references and resources, as well as a transcript of my conversation with Allan, please go to the Social Work Podcast website at socialworkpodcast.com. If you want to join the conversation about clinicians in court, go to our Facebook page at Facebook.com/swpodcast. If you’re on Twitter, you can follow the podcast at twitter.com/socworkpodcast. And now, without further ado, on to Episode 76 of the Social Work Podcast: Social Workers in Court: Interview with Allan Barsky.

Proposed Changes in DSM-5: Interview with Micki Washburn, LPC-S and Danielle Parrish, Ph.D.

There’s an old saying, “What’s the fastest way to cure mental illness in an entire group of people? Get rid of the diagnosis.” The proposed changes to DSM-5 get rid of some diagnoses and add others. But that's not all. If you're like me, you have lots of questions about changes to DSM-5. When I posted the question “what would you like to know about the DSM-5” to the Social Work Podcast Facebook page 11 people responded in less than an hour and 20 people responded by the end of the day. So, what did they want to know? Jessica, Shelly, Sandy, Spring, Paul, and Suzannah wanted to know about autism, depression, and personality disorders. Shylah and Jen wanted to know about addictions. Lisa wanted to know what was up with ADHD. Ciarrai and Lyndon posed some great questions about the merits of DSM diagnosis in social work practice.

In today's Social Work Podcast, I speak with Micki Washburn, MA, LPC-S, NCC and Danielle Parrish, Ph.D. about proposed changes in DSM-5. We talked about the cross-cutting dimensional assessment, changes in the organization of the DSM-5, and changes in diagnoses such as ADHD, Asperger’s, Autism, Depression, Substance Use, and personality disorders.  We talked about some of the intended consequences such as greater accuracy for diagnosis, and some of the possible unintended consequences such as loss of funding for diagnostic-specific services.  We end with some thoughts about social work’s role in the new DSM.

Update: DSM-5 was published on May 27, 2013. Social work licensure exams in the USA (ASWB) required DSM-5 starting in 2015.

The Chronological Assessment of Suicide Events (CASE) Approach: Interview and Role Play with Shawn Christopher Shea, M.D.

[Episode 74] Today’s Social Work Podcast is an interview with Shawn Christopher Shea, M.D., developer of an approach to uncovering suicidal ideation and intent called the Chronological Assessment of Suicide Events (CASE) approach. In today’s episode, Shawn takes us through the CASE approach. He explains the value of assessing for suicidal content at different time points and emphasizes that eliciting suicidal ideation and intent is a difficult and sensitive topic. He talks about how moving through the CASE approach to help establish a therapeutic alliance and rapport with suicidal clients. He emphasizes the art of the interview, using validity techniques, and how we use words as central to uncovering suicidal ideation and intent. He talks about how the CASE approach is useful for any mental health provider. Shawn makes the argument that the CASE approach is an ideal approach to for assessing for suicidal risk that doesn’t sound like a pat suicide assessment. He emphasizes that the CASE approach is one-third of a thorough suicide assessment, the other two parts being identifying risk and protective factors, and the final part being developing a clinical formulation.

This figure represents the three components of a thorough suicide assessment. The CASE approach  provides a framework for assessing the information in the red square (ideation, plan, behaviors, desire, and intent).

Shawn has written that a thorough suicide assessment has three parts: 1) Gathering information related to risk factors, protective factors, and warning signs of suicide; 2) Collecting information related to the patient’s suicidal ideation, planning, behaviors, desire, and intent; and 3) Making a clinical formulation of risk based on these 2 databases. He writes that in the “clinical and research literature, much attention has been given to the first and third tasks (gathering risk/protective factors/warning signs and clinical formulation). Significantly less attention has been given to the second task—the detailed set of interviewing skills needed to effectively elicit suicidal ideation, behaviors, and intent. But in many respects, it is the validity of the information from the second component that may yield the greatest hint of imminent suicide.” (Shea, 2009, p. 1).

My interview with Shawn is a single episode in two continuous parts. In Part I Shawn and I talk about the CASE approach, including some of the validity techniques he has developed or uses to elicit suicidal ideation and intent. In the second part Shawn and I do a role play where he uses the CASE approach. 

Cultural Considerations in Military Social Work: Interview with Dr. Anthony Hassan

[Episode 69] Today's Social Work Podcast, Episode 69 – Cultural Considerations in Military Social Work, is the second in a two-part series with Anthony Hassan on Military Social Work. In Part I, Anthony and I spoke about The Training and Education of Military Social Workers.

Any discussion of culture and culturally relevant practice begins with the idea that we are all cultural beings. We see the world differently depending on which culturally-informed lenses we have on. In the United States, where military service is not a requirement, being in the military offers a unique set of lenses.  I got a glimpse of the very practical, day-to-day implications of seeing the world through military lenses when I asked today's guest what I thought was a very straightforward question – a question I ask all my guests before the interview starts – "what do you want me to call you?"

The Training and Education of Military Social Workers: Interview with Dr. Anthony Hassan

[Episode 68] Today's Social Work Podcast, The Training and Education of Military Social Workers, is the first of a two-part series. Part II, is a discussion of Cultural considerations in military social work. I'm doing this two part series because whether you agree or disagree with America n's involvement in what has now become the longest continuous combat engagement in its 235 year history, "There is an urgent need to understand and engage with the military service members, veterans, their families, and their communities in effective [social work] practices…" (CSWE, 2010, p. 2). I hear some of you right now; I'm reading your thoughts: you don't work for the Veterans Administration; you're not contracted by the military to provide services; you don't wear the uniform and serve in the armed forces. And yet, according to my guest, Anthony Hassan, you could still be a military social worker.