Monday, September 22, 2014

Music, positive youth development, and homelessness: Interview with Brian Kelly, Ph.D.

[Episode 92] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast looks at an innovative approach to developing strengths and resilience in youth experiencing homelessness - a music studio housed within an agency. 

In today’s interview, I speak with Brian Kelly, Ph.D., assistant professor at Loyola University Chicago. Brian briefly describes factors that put youth at risk for homelessness and the three levels of services provided to homeless youth. We end with Brian playing some clips from the audio documentary, and discussing how the music provides insight into the youths' lives.    

Download MP3 [39:46]


Brian L. Kelly, Ph.D.
Loyola University Chicago
School of Social Work
Title/s: Assistant Professor
Office #: Lewis Tower 1247
Phone: 312.915.7479


Hey there podcast listener. You ready to play a game? It’s called “word association.” Freud loved it. He sort of built a whole psychotherapy off of it. If you don't know what it is, here's how you play it:  I say a word, and you say the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah, just shout it out in your car, at the gym, on the bus, at the library, in class. It will be a good time. (Freud thought so). Alright. Here we go.
  • Recording studio
  • Composer
  • Lyricist
  • Musician
  • Documentary

Here’s what popped to my mind (and yes, I really did this exercise):

  • Recording studio : Success
  • Composer : Beethoven 
  • Lyricist : Stephen Sondheim 
  • Musician : Creative
  • Documentary : Ken Burns

When I think about Beethoven, Sondheim, Burns, I think of them as creative and successful. These are high status associations. What I didn’t associate with these words, was the words “homeless youth.” Well, today’s episode of the social work podcast is all about homeless youth who are composers, lyricists, musicians, whose work in a recording studio was the subject of a documentary.

My guest is Brian Kelly, assistant professor of social work at Loyola University Chicago. Brian’s insights into the intersection of all of these ideas are drawn from his doctoral dissertation, “Superman in the smallest space: Exploring a music studio for young people experiencing homelessness.” The link to the dissertation is on the website. In today’s interview, Brian briefly describes factors that put youth at risk for homelessness, the three levels of services provided to homeless youth, and an innovative way of helping homeless, or housing insecure, youth develop skills and resources that might protect against future homelessness – a music studio housed within an agency. As part of his dissertation, Brian and the youth created an audio documentary. Brian first told me about his dissertation and the audio documentary about a year before we did this interview in November 2013. As he described the audio documentary I thought, “podcast. I gotta get this guy on the podcast, if for no other reason than to hear what these youth were able to create.” Apparently my colleagues from University at Buffalo’s InSocialWork podcast series felt the same way. You can hear Brian talking more in depth about his research questions, methodology and results in their episode 136. The link is on the podcast website. Now, the best part of this interview is that Brian shares with us some clips from the  audio documentary.

And now, without further ado, on to episode 92 of the social work podcast, Music, positive youth development, and homelessness: Interview with Brian Kelly, Ph.D.

04:54 Jonathan Singer: Brian thanks so much for being here on the Social Work podcast and talking with us today about homeless youth. Could you give us a brief description of what the experience is like for homeless youth?

05:07 Brian Kelly: Sure, so in terms of the literature more often than not young people experiencing homelessness, are framed from what I kind of describe as ‘a risks and consequences perspective’. Researchers, authors, and writers talk about homeless youth in terms of what leads to them experiencing homelessness, in terms of risks. And so these risks are kind of broken into several categories, including populations that are at risk of a disproportionate experience of homelessness. And so some of the big categories there would be LGBTQ youth, for a variety of reasons. Like their parents might not accept them, or they don’t feel welcome at home or in their community, or they might find other groups of LGBTQ and queer homeless youth that they kind of want to roam with.

Other kinds of risks that lead to young people experiencing homelessness that show up a lot in the literature, would be family conflict. And I actually remember listening to your podcast number 67 with National Runaway Switchboard and the Director talked about family conflict and her perspective still being one of the leading causes of young people experiencing homelessness. And that can get broken down in a lot of different ways. It can be abuse, whether it be physical, sexual, or emotional (in terms of neglect in the home). And it can also be around pregnancy and just other types of risk factors that young people may experience. So in terms of the consequences in the literature, what authors often write about is this idea of what young people experience once they become homeless and on the streets. And so we see a lot of writing about behavioral problems, and about physical health problems that young people encounter. And then there is a lot written about the survival crimes that young people may engage in, and the consequences of those. So survival sex, petty crime, petty theft, pan handling and then often drug use, to cope with the experience of being homeless. That being said, we know that in order to survive homelessness young people have to have strength and resilience.

07:17 Jonathan Singer: So that was a nice summary of the risk factors and also some of the strengths of kids. So what’s the experience with agencies that are providing the services to homeless youth?   

07:33 Brian Kelly: That’s a great question. So where we are at today, is very much influenced by the passing of the Runaway and Homeless Youth Act in the mid-70s. Which basically at the time, set up basic shelters. And then from there over the years, we have evolved into a more nuanced system of services. Kind of a spectrum of services and those include basic shelters, transitional living grounds, and permanent support of housing programs for young people experiencing homelessness. Basic shelter provides some of the basic needs for young people experiencing homelessness. Shelter provides a place to stay for the night, food, showers, sometimes transportation to services. But the thing about those shelters is that they’re more often than not only open in the evening. And so young people queue up to get a slot, a space and then in the daytime they’re kind of let out to the city, the rural area (wherever it happens to be), to engage in maybe an educational activity, or vocational activity. Transitional living programs are a step up from a basic shelter in that they provide an interim housing service. And this is somewhat different than the adult population of homeless people, and our understanding of transitional living for homeless adults. But with young people transitional living program, young people can stay in those programs for up to two years. And so each program has its different tenure in terms of how long young people can stay, but in a transitional living program you’re looking at a more sophisticated offering of services. So you might have a Nurse practitioner on staff, you might have mental health services on staff, or there’s some kind of agreement with the provider and the community.

And then the final stage (and there is less of these programs than there are transitional living programs in the basic shelters) but there permanent support for housing. And at that level what we’re seeing is that young people are being offered apartments and places within the community. And they’re not building based, they’re more often scattered sites. And so scattered sites means that young people have an apartment in a larger apartment building and are living in the community, as opposed to something like a transitional living program where they are in a budding based environment and all the young people are living together. We don’t know a whole lot about the effectiveness of services and as you look at basic shelters, transitional living programs, a permanent supportive housing program, we know less and less as we move up the chain. So the most studies exist about shelters and their outcomes. Then we have this moderate level of knowing of effectiveness at the transitional living program, and then we know the permanent supportive housing programs.  

10:23 Jonathan Singer: So the agency that you worked with, what sort of services did they provide and where did they fall in that continuum?

10:29 Brian Kelly: Teen Living Programs, which is located in Bronzeville in Chicago. It is a transitional living program for young people experiencing homelessness. And they invite young people to stay in their transitional living program for up to two years. In addition they also provide linkages to permanent supportive housing. That’s a much smaller program. It’s run by the agency where I spent the bulk of my time with the transitional living program, but within the agency itself. In terms of the services that they offer, they offer a very wide spectrum. They align themselves and subscribe to a Youth Development Model. In terms of understanding positive youth development there’s kind of the lingo that we use around it, and then there’s actually a holistic model that’s kind of written out from the Federal Government, and then how it’s actually implemented at the agency level. The agency really tries to respond to the young person from a Biopsychosocial perspective, and at times spiritual level if young people are interested. And so they have a Nurse practitioner on staff, they have clinical case management, and then they have what I would describe (and they describe this) more front line case management. So middle management, and then there is the more sophisticated level of clinical management. And they also offer supportive services. And supportive services are broken down into kind of three areas. There’s vocational services to help young people attain employment. These young people are between the ages of 18 to 21. Educational services as well, so helping finish their GED and maybe getting them into a community College, or some might decide to go to school and some decide to go to University as well. And then where I am most interested is there are also recreational services for the young people as well. And take a minute, I just want to briefly describe that attention to supportive services evolved directly out of the agency’s interests in positive youth development in the late 90s and early 2000s. The agency went through an organizational shift where they really signed on to positive youth development. So the development of the supportive services (and those again would be education, vocation, and recreation) is in some ways a direct, and I don’t want to say ‘causally direct’, but a direct result of the agency’s subscription to positive youth development.

12:54 Jonathan Singer: So you mentioned that this agency focuses on three areas and one of them is recreational programming, and you did a study on a music studio in this agency that homeless youth can work in. How did you get involved in that and how did you come to do this study?

13:16 Brian Kelly: So as I mentioned earlier about ten years ago I was working as a Clinician at the agency and I was running Harm Reduction groups for young people around their substance use. And so Harm Reduction is this philosophy in addictions, as opposed to an Abstinence Model, which is where we might suggest that people abstain from any alcohol or drug use. In Harm Reduction we’re trying to get them to look at ways they can decrease the harm that they may be doing to themselves through their drug use and alcohol use. And so, as I mentioned these young people were between the ages of 18 and 21, and more often than not, were not particularly interested in talking to me about their drug use, which was primarily marijuana at the time. So more often than not I would have to walk around in the agency and kind of drum up interest in ‘hey groups is going to start’ and they go running like ‘it’s the drug guy run, run’. And one day in particular I happened to go down in the basement of the agency, cause there were two young men who had been strongly encouraged to come to this group and who had not come, and I was seeking them out. And I walked into the basement, and I saw them in the basement, and they were working on music. And one young man was kind of huddled over this kind of what I would define now in 2013 as an archaic hard drive recorder, working on some beat production. And the other young man was in the corner with a mic stand and kind of a makeshift popper stopper, which is something you would put in front of a microphone diaphragm to stop a hard constant like Bs and Ps and Ts. And they were working on music and I just had this moment where I said like ‘wow there’s something happening here and I’m not really sure what it is, but I know I shouldn’t ask them to come to group. I should just kind of stand here and see if they will be okay if I stay here and watch them and kind of just be in this space.’ And they were okay with it.

15:16 Jonathan Singer: So what did you see? Or what did you feel was different, what you saw upstairs?

15:22 Brian Kelly: Well, I think one thing I will say is that I am a musician and I have a passion for music. And when I was 18 or 19, I know that music helped me in a lot of ways. It helped me be able to communicate and express things that I didn’t necessarily know how to do otherwise. And it provided me a sense of community with the people I made music with. I grew up in the northwest suburbs of Chicago and we had a really thriving music scene and it was a way to engage with each other and be in relationships. And I wouldn’t look back and say that I had “astuity.” I don’t know if that’s a word. The ‘astuteness’ to know that was what was happening. But I think in my gut level I knew that they were engaged in a process that was really important to them. I had a hunch that what might be happening for them is that they were like I was 15-years prior, engaged in a process of expressing something and being in relationship with each other in a way that we might not have been able to if they had come to the harm reduction group. And at the same time, they weren’t unaware of what they were doing. They had these existing skills, talent, and strengths they were engaged in, and from my assessment at the time. At the time they were fostering those and developing them further, and so to pull them out of that space and say ‘hey why don’t you guys stop this and let’s come upstairs and talk about something that you’re reluctant to talk about anyways’, when they were in a space where they were engaged in something that they had skills and strengths that are ready, seemed to be important to me not to pull them out of that. In the years that transpired between me leaving there as a Clinician and then coming back and getting my PhD, the studio developed into a fully functioning music studio space that had a small amount of funding and had space allocation. Physical space allocation within the building, within the agency. And so, when I went back to ask the agency if I could actually do an ethnography in the music studio space, they were very open to it. So having studied youth homelessness for several years in my Doctoral course work and having this practice experience of knowing that it’s not just about risks and consequences, that it’s also about strengths and resiliency, I developed a study that tried to get an understanding of the factors and processes that lead to the development of the space. And with this question I was really trying to get a sense of (given the current financial climate country of Illinois and Chicago, and how social service agencies tend to be tightening all around), how was it that this agency decided that it wanted to put fiscal support and actual physical space and staffing around music studio space. And then I wanted to get an understanding of what young peoples’ experiences were in the studio and what the grand ethnographic transaction. And there I was, really trying to get a sense of whether there were consequences and benefits to this space. And so, I was interested in the strengths perspective. I didn’t want to be fully biased and not look at whether or not there may be some consequences for them as well. And then the third question that I really wanted to get a sense of was the meaning of attached the experience to this. With that question I was really trying to get a deeper understanding of not just observing their experience, but then talking to them about “what does this mean for you?”

18:50 Jonathan Singer: Okay so I think we’re all curious, what did you find? What processes lead to the development of this studio?

18:58 Brian Kelly: Essentially the agency has an organizational commitment to positive youth development, and through that commitment they hired a Recreational Programming Specialist. And this person had an interest in music and then in many ways became a studio advocate. And so what you have is, you have the combination of having a staff member who is invested in this program, and you have a positive youth development model that allows the voice of the young people to be at the table when it comes to programming development. And it was the synthesis of those two things that really lead to how the studio not only developed, but how it was able to sustain over close to a decade now.

19:43 Jonathan Singer: You know it makes a lot of sense that there was an advocate for the creation of the music studio. And so what were the kids’ experiences of having this space?

19:54 Brian Kelly: The first thing to note is that all of the young people had a pre-existing relationship with music. What that did in many ways was that it indicated to me that they weren’t just necessarily engaging in new activities in this space, that they were able to pull their existing interests in and I found it really fascinating that the agency was willing to respond to young peoples’ previous experiences. So I thought that was really great and that aligns amazingly with positive youth development. They also engaged in educational kind of activities in the space, and the very interesting thing to me about that is that it was a reciprocal process. And so when we think about music education, we often think about someone educating a young person around maybe composition, and today’s day of age maybe technical software type things. But what was fascinating to me was that it wasn’t just the staff, for example, the studio advocate might be training young people on how to use software. The young people were also training the studio advocate on how to use software they were familiar with, so there was this dialogue going about technology and music software and music hardware and development. And then young people also educated each other in terms of training each other on different kinds of composition ideas. One young person might be a stronger lyric writer or lyricist than another young person, so they would train each other. So when I talk about a reciprocal process it’s very much young people educating staff, staff educating young people, and young people educating each other.

21:35 Jonathan Singer: You know as you’re describing this, I am imagining this community of kids and they’re all listening to music all the time anyway, and one of the beautiful things about music is that different music speaks to different people. So I am kind of having this image of this studio where you have kids that we might lump together as ‘oh these are homeless’, but they’re not homogenous. And so they have different tastes in music, there are different things that pique their interests, they have different skills. So what you’re saying is because they have this love of music they were able to engage with each other, pull from different things, educate staff as well as each other, and kind of this being a focal point that drew on something that they already came in with.

22:23 Brian Kelly: Absolutely and what you’re describing is this additional theme that I found which I describe as ‘music appreciation’. When we think about services we often think about outcomes and what are the measurable outcomes. And I am not necessarily sure that I could measure this quantitatively. But qualitatively what I found was that there was this important process of music appreciation. And what would happen is young people would kind of congregate in the space. And one young person may have a preference for what I will describe as “dusty” older kind of R&B tracks from the late 60s and early 70s. And another young person may have a particular interest in “trap beat” music. Which would be kind of defined as darker, more modern rap, someone like 50 cent. Or Wally might be another artist. They would have these conversations with each other about music interests and what, would be happening is that they would be educating each other as well. And it wasn’t just about the music, it was about themselves. They were sharing their life history with each other and so what you kind of described, is they’re non-homogenous right? But they’re also often times maybe a little bit guarded around each other because of their experiences, and what they had to do to survive on the streets. And now the studio allowing them an opportunity to kind of let their guard down a little bit, and it’s not just with each other, like with education reciprocal appreciation as reciprocal as well, so they’re able to do it with staff. And so staff would often describe how these appreciation opportunities allowed them an opportunity to engage with young people in ways that they might not have been able to in a one-on-one clinical session, or in a one-on-one Nurse practitioner session, or one-on-one case management session.

24:15 Jonathan Singer: So we’re talking about the young peoples’ experiences in the studio, and I know you brought a couple of clips of the recordings that they did. So let’s take a listen to one of those clips now. And then I want you to tell us, what’s going right. What we’re hearing, and what you’re learning about them through this clip.

24:33 Clip 1: music plays. Never ever, ever, ever, give up, never give up no, not ever, ever, ever, give up, never, not ever give up, never. Not ever, ever, ever give up never. I turn the papers in, they say they ain’t hiring, I need some air, and pops retiring, my block is prob but should stop the violence, all I hear is sirens, no said no gonna be alright.

26:8 Jonathan Singer: That was an amazing clip. I have to say it’s so crazy to think about the stereotype of the homeless youth, and then to hear that, which I could totally imagine hearing on the radio or in a club and some major production studio somewhere in LA or New York. When you hear that, which I am sure you’ve heard a dozen times or more, what does that say to you?

26:32 Brian Kelly: Sure, so this would be at base level an example of music production, which would be another major experience that young people have in the studio. And more specifically this would be an example of collaboration. So a little bit of context, this is collaboration between three or four young people and over time it whittled down to two due to some conflict over the collaboration, which I will talk about in a little bit. And each of the young people involved had a pre-existing relationship with music, so kind of like what we talked about earlier. This idea of young people coming in with some skills, and so at times the higher production level that you’re hearing is indicative of pre-existing strengths and skills. So, when I listen to this track which is called “Never Give Up”, what I hear is, I hear the young people giving voice to this kind of sense of their experience on the streets and how they were never going to give up. And so now that they are in teen living programs, and they’re in this studio, and they are reflecting on that time, and they’re also reminding themselves they’re not going to stop now, this isn’t the end, they are going to keep going. And in their environment, they experience all kinds of obstacles and challenges both in TLP, the agency, and outside on the streets. But that’s not going to be the endgame for them. They are going to overcome those things, and within the actual collaboration itself, in my observations, and follow-up interviews with the young people what I found was that in working through tension and conflict that can arise in any kind of collaboration, we’re able to develop interpersonal skills around learning how to communicate with each other in an assertive and non-confrontational way. Learning how to work through conflict and not walk away. And I think most importantly learn how to lean on each other and understand that I may be a good producer but I don’t know how to sing. And this other young person may not know how to produce but they know how to sing. So can we come together and collaborate on something and then work through all the kind of tensions and conflicts that can arise through the collaboration. And I think it’s a great example, I mean you indicated it and I have heard it dozens of times, and probably heard it a hundred times and it still kind of resonates with me as this kind of really amazing example of what’s possible, is we provide avenues for young people to do the kind of work they’re interested in.

29:10 Jonathan Singer: You know the skills you were just describing that they learned in collaboration, seem like exactly the kind of personal skills that any agency would be salivating at if they could say ‘yea our clients are learning these.’ And it sounds like they are really learning them in an experiential way. You also brought in a clip of an independent production and could you set this up for us? What are we going to hear?

29:36 Brian Kelly: Absolutely, so there will be two young people that you will hear from in this clip. A young man who went by the name Outlaw and that’s a pseudonym obviously. And what we did was we were working on a larger project, it was a co-constructed audio documentary that was kind of a companion piece for the larger ethnographic study. And as we were doing recordings for the audio documentary one day, I brought in a decent microphone and set it up. And he did some free styling and so you know I turned on the mic and said “let it rip” and he let it rip. And then in an interview later, Outlaw started talking about some of the challenges that young people face in the studio and I think he is speaking to a very kind of, his own experience, but an experience that all the young people had around working independently in the studio, and it was overcoming technical challenges. And in working independently going and overcoming, coming through those technical challenges, much like in collaboration but in terms of working independently, young people were able to work through some interpersonal skills as well, and develop those skills. And as another example of that, as kind of Outlaw kind of narrative from the clip you will hear another young man come in, Theo, and he will be playing some piano for us. And you know I just have to say as important as it is to demonstrate Theo’s skill and proficiency around the piano, in terms of thinking about research and audio documentary as this kind of new way of presenting research. This piano piece for me is just really important cause it offers the listener time to just sit back and reflect and be in the space of the piano and kind of not be so focused on the narrative, just be able to kind of get lost in the moment. And so, it’s personally a very important piece for me in that it not only demonstrates his ability to compose his skills, but also to really come into his space and be with him for the moment.   

31:36 Jonathan Singer: As I think about it, having time to just be, to be reflective, to be in that zone that one can be in when they are just playing, is important for everybody. But I imagine that if you are spending a lot of energy trying to survive, that is a much more rare space to be in, and so all the more significant.

32:11 Brian Kelly: It’s huge, absolutely. I don’t think that we could together understate that importance, and I don’t know if the young people are always articulated as such, but staff absolutely knew that. And if we were to go back to that first research question to the processes that lead to the development of the space, many of the staff indicated that they felt that it was essential for young people to have that moment, and that space to be, cause of what you indicated, absolutely. They do not have the opportunity. When you’re moving from shelter to shelter, space to space, you don’t get to have that moment. So it’s a really beautiful thing that they go to have that in the agency.

32:54 Jonathan Singer: All right, let’s take a listen.

32:55 Clip 2; He gonna let it run and I am going to make it light burn. I am going to face the east cause naw let it run just let it run. Just going to get a good topic in my head and let it go on. Okay I am going to do this freestyle, first time, feel like I am in a real studio, got the good mic you know, feel good, its a beautiful day out, I am going to go like this. Today I got a lot going on, I am something like the prince just looking for the throne. Yea I got a lot too knowledge see through the storm and I am like unique, way out of the norm. Way out perform, something like a boss, something walking away from chances, just your loss, yea I am something like Jesus, looking for vices, not nailed to the cross, yea when I am in the studio spitting these bars this is just how I release my energy, dodging my enemies, these are my frenemies, all black everything. The most challenges, I have with this studio is learning how to deal with the equipment that I have no knowledge of. I mean I am more of a lyricist, I mostly deal with words, you know and poetry, rapping, laying 16s you know, so when it comes to certain equipment, mastering it, fixing it, all that type of stuff. Piano is playing in the background

35:13 Jonathan Singer: These are so evocative, they’re so intense. I guess it shouldn’t be surprising, but the third thing that you talked about doing in this ethnography understands the meanings that these young people attached to their experience in the music studio.

35:34 Brian Kelly: Absolutely, yeah. And what we’re going to do is listen to another clip. And I will give you a little bit of context for that, that I think explains better than I could. But overall young people in interviews pretty much reported that the studio in total gives them a chance of opportunity to develop new skills, to connect with staff, to connect with each other and to connect with themselves. As I indicated earlier a companion piece to this project was the audio documentary, and I think by allowing the young people to kind of share what the studio meant to them, would give a much better sense of the meanings that they attached to their experiences in the studio. So other than listen to me talk about this for another two minutes, I am going to turn it over to the young people. So you will hear from the four members of the audio documentary team. You will hear from Theo who was the piano player in the last clip, he will tell us about his experiences and the meaning he attaches to them. Then we will hear from a young lady named Smurf who will share some of her experiences. Finally we will hear from Outlaw again, who was the free stylist in the second clip. And underneath them we will hear Marcus. We won’t hear him narrating but we will hear his original kind of music production.   

36:50 Jonathan Singer: Since we’re not coming back, Brian, thank you so much for your work with these young people, creating this audio documentary, and sharing it with us. I think it’s phenomenal.

37:1 Brian Kelly: Thank you so much.

37:3.4 Theo (clip 3): One of the most valuable things that I have learned working in this studio space, was that teamwork is key. When you’re doing a collaboration project you can’t always be the front-runner. You have to work together to get it accomplished, or it won’t be the best product it can be. For me the greatest thing is being able to form so many positive relationships. It’s not always a power struggle, you know, when I can come and collaborate with others to produce a high-quality product that many people will enjoy, that’s the greatest thing for me. I am about pleasing my audience.

37:43 Smurf (clip 3): Yeah, it really gives me a place to go and be at peace with myself you know. It’s pretty much like my oasis, it’s a place just for me. Even when I’m working with somebody else, I still feel like I have control over everything that goes on. Really, it’s like the studio gives me power. It’s like superman and the smallest space. It’s a small space beneath being. So my being a small person, and I have control over a big place, in my mind it pretty much makes me feel good, the studio makes me happy.   

38:29 Outlaw (clip 3): The greatest thing about the studio is the finished product. Spending all that time working on brainstorming, critical thinking about what to lay down next, what to add, what type of CDs, what type of audio. I just feel like when you get done with all this and you got the final product and look at what you have been working on is done, that’s the greatest thing about this studio.

References and Resources

  • Episode 136 - Dr. Brian Kelly: Superman in the Smallest Place: Exploring a Music Studio for Young People Experiencing Homelessness. (2014, February 3). inSocialWork® Podcast Series. [Audio Podcast] Retrieved from
  • Kelly, B. L. (2013) Superman in the smallest space: Exploring a music studio for young people experiencing homelessness. [Dissertation]. Retrieved from

APA (7th ed) citation for this podcast:

Singer, J. B. (Producer/Host). (2014, September 22). #92 - Music, positive youth development, and homelessness: Interview with Brian Kelly, Ph.D. [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast.

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