The Social Work Podcast: The Greatest of All Plagues: David Lay Williams, PhD on Economic Inequality

[Episode 140] In today's episode I talk with David Lay Williams, Professor of Political Science at DePaul University about his 2024 book, The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Plato to Marx.

The interview with Dr. Williams highlights several reasons why economic inequality is dangerous, drawing heavily on the ideas of historical thinkers.

Social Conflict and Instability: Dr. Williams emphasizes Plato's view that economic inequality creates a divided society, leading to conflict and instability. He points to Plato's concept of a city divided into two—one of the rich and one of the poor—constantly plotting against each other. This resonates with contemporary observations that rising inequality correlates with the growth of authoritarian populism, social distrust, and political instability.

Erosion of Community and Sympathy: Adam Smith, often seen as a proponent of free markets, believed that extreme economic inequality hinders the development of community and mutual sympathy. Smith argued that a large gap between rich and poor makes it difficult for sympathy to flow between these groups. He was particularly concerned about the lack of sympathy from the wealthy toward the less fortunate, citing a biblical example of a rich man ignoring a beggar. Dr. Williams suggests this lack of sympathy can undermine social cohesion and shared responsibility.

Undermining of Democracy: The interview touches upon the potential threat to democracy posed by economic inequality, particularly through the influence of charitable foundations established by the wealthy. While not directly addressed by Dr. Williams, he references the work of Stanford political theorist Rob Reich, who argues that foundations can perpetuate the power of wealthy individuals and potentially undermine democratic processes. John Stuart Mill also expressed concerns about foundations, viewing them as potentially imposing the will of the wealthy on future generations.

Obstacles to Individual Liberty: Dr. Williams explains how John Stuart Mill, a champion of individual liberty, saw economic inequality as a significant obstacle to achieving true freedom. Mill argued that extreme disparities in wealth create an environment of resentment and distrust, hindering the development of a strong community. He believed that a certain level of economic equality was necessary to foster a society where individuals could genuinely thrive and exercise their liberties.

Dr. Williams' insights, grounded in the wisdom of historical thinkers, offer a compelling argument for why economic inequality poses a danger to society. He demonstrates that the problem extends beyond mere economic disparities, impacting social cohesion, political stability, and individual well-being. I'm excited to bring this conversation about political philosophy to social workers because social work is an inherently interdisciplinary profession. We draw on insights from every discipline and every profession in the pursuit of improving the world and making our client’s lives better. The relationship between social work and biology, psychology, sociology (biopsychosocial anyone???), politics and even economics is clear. But, the relationship between social work and political philosophy? Not so clear. Don't tell David, but I’m not even sure what political philosophy is. But that doesn’t stop me from being very excited to share today’s conversation with David Williams, professor of Political Science at DePaul University and author of the 2024 book, The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Plato to Marx.

Download MP3 [52:10]

Transcript

Introduction

Hey there podcast listeners, Jonathan here. Today’s episode is about Economic Inequality. Now, before you turn the dial, I know what you are thinking: “Jonathan, I know there is economic inequality. No need to do a whole podcast episode about it.” Ok. Fair enough. But, this isn’t your typical social work lecture where we talk about poverty rates, argue about how we define poverty, or even talk about the benefits of social programs like earned income tax credit (EITC), social security, or Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) that move groups of people from below the poverty line to above the poverty line. I’m not even going to Ethical Standard 6.01 of the NASW Code of Ethics which says that “Social workers should advocate for living conditions conducive to the fulfillment of basic human needs.”

Ethical Standards
Standard 6.01: Social Welfare
Social workers should promote the general welfare of society and advocate for living conditions conducive to the fulfillment of basic human needs.
They should work toward eliminating poverty, unemployment, and other forms of economic and social injustice.

Because, in today’s podcast, about economic inequality, not income inequality. I’ll say that again. Economic inequality is not the same as income inequality. And fulfilling basic human needs isn’t enough.

And to unpack that idea, I spoke with Dr. David Lay Williams, Professor of Political Science at DePaul University about his 2024 book, The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Plato to Marx. Why talk with a political scientist? Social work is an inherently interdisciplinary profession. Every day we put into practice the insights from the fields of biology, psychology, sociology (biopsychosocial anyone???), politics and and even economics. But, the relationship between social work and and the political philosophy Dr. Williams is writing about - not so clear. I’m not even sure what political philosophy is. But that doesn’t stop me from being excited about today’s conversation.

In his book, Dr. Williams argues that the great Western political thinkers have persistently warned against the dangers of economic inequality. For example, he tells us that 2300 years ago Plato pointed out that economic inequality creates a divided society, leading to conflict and instability. Plato wasn’t just philosophizing. He was grappling with something that he was dealing during his lifetime. Today, with the greatest wealth gap in a century, we see how rising economic inequality correlates with the growth of authoritarian populism, social distrust, and political instability. So, today’s conversation will provide you with a deeper understanding of the historical roots of economic inequality, insights into the ethical, social, and political implications of economic disparities, exposure to various philosophical arguments and proposed solutions related to inequality, and a framework for connecting historical thought to contemporary discussions on wealth, poverty, and social justice. Interested? I hope so.

Now, a few words about today’s episode. This is a live interview I did with David for his book launch on September 3, 2024 in front of a standing room only crowd at Squeezebox, a groovy used book and record store in Evanston, IL. In the introduction you’ll hear me refer to myself as the “drummer in the Jazz Dads,” which is the jazz group David and I have played in since January 2023. Here’s a little clip from recent gig:

Chicago Jazz Dads [00:32]

I also want to let you know that I went old school with the recording: I set up a mic and PA and then put my trusty Zoom H2 digital recorder in front of the speaker. That’s right. No line in, no mixing board. I channeled my inner 10 year old who would take my fisher price tape recorder and place it next to the hifi speaker. The good news is that the sound quality is much better today than it was in the 1970s.

Finally, about 27 minutes into the interview we open it up for questions. I’m keeping the Q&A in the episode because there are lots of thoughtful questions and answers. The audience didn’t have a microphone, so you’ll hear silence or faint talking during the question. During the interview I summarized most of the questions before handing it over to David, in part because I knew that I would be publishing it as a podcast episode. So, if you hear silence, that’s probably what it is. The episode ends very sweetly with David wishing his wife, Happy Birthday.

And now, without further ado, on to episode 140 of the Social Work Podcast, The Greatest of All Plagues: David Williams, PhD on Economic Inequality

Interview

(Transcript forthcoming)

Questions asked in the interview:

What is economic inequality and what sparked Dr. Williams' interest in the topic?
Why should we study historical perspectives on economic inequality, especially when contemporary scholars are actively researching it?
Which historical thinkers, besides the obvious Karl Marx, had concerns about economic inequality?
Why has economic inequality persisted for so long?
What solutions have historical thinkers proposed for addressing inequality?
Is the contemporary concept of a wealth tax rooted in any historical philosophical thought?
Are there any other thinkers Dr. Williams would have liked to include in his book?
How can Adam Smith, a champion of free markets, also be concerned about economic inequality?
Did historical thinkers address the role of charitable foundations established by the wealthy?
What is the meaning and origin of the book's title, "The Greatest of All Plagues"?
How can John Stuart Mill, a staunch advocate for individual liberty, also champion economic equality?
Do Scandinavian countries offer any lessons on achieving greater economic equality?

Bio (from DePaul's website):

David Lay Williams. Professor and Pre-law Advisor. College of Liberal Arts & Social Sciences. DePaul University. https://las.depaul.edu/academics/political-science/faculty/Pages/david-lay-williams.aspx

Professor Williams teaches and conducts research in political theory, especially the history of political thought. He received his PhD in Government from the University of Texas at Austin. Prior coming to DePaul in 2011, he was Professor of Philosophy and Political Science at the University of Wisconsin—Stevens Point.

Williams is the author of Rousseau's Platonic Enlightenment (2007), Rousseau's 'Social Contract': An Introduction (2014), and The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Plato to Marx (2024) as well as numerous articles on thinkers ranging from Plato to Jürgen Habermas and topics such as democratic theory, economic inequality, political ontology, and deception. He has also co-edited several books, including most recently, The Cambridge Companion to Rousseau’s “Social Contract” (2024).

In 2003-2004 and 2008-2009, he held research fellowships at the Institute for Research in the Humanities at the University of Wisconsin—Madison, and in 2012-13, he held a faculty fellowship at the DePaul Humanities Center. In 2016-2017 he was the Wicklander Fellow at DePaul's Institute for Business and Professional Ethics. From 2017-2022 he was the political theory editor for the journal, Political Research Quarterly. In 2023-2024, he collaborated with Professor Matthew W. Maguire and the Alliance Française in Chicago as part of the HumanitiesX program, funded by the Mellon Foundation, in which he co-taught a course on Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America and co-organized a public roundtable on Tocqueville’s relevance today. Professor Williams also writes short pieces connecting the history of political thought to contemporary political concerns for outlets such as the Washington Post, Time Magazine, The Hill, Public Seminar, Bloomberg News, and the Chicago Sun-Times.

In his spare time, Williams plays jazz guitar locally with the Chicago Jazz Dads and the In Full Swing Orchestra big band; and once every few years he does European tours with the Curt Wilson Alumni Jazz Band.

References and Resources

Williams, D. L. (2024). The greatest of all plagues: How economic inequality shaped political thought from Plato to Marx. Princeton University Press. https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691171975/the-greatest-of-all-plagues

David Williams, Jonathan Singer, Tim Peterson at Squeezebox

APA (7th ed) citation for this podcast:

Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2024, November 25). #140 - The Greatest of All Plagues: David Lay Williams, PhD on Economic Inequality [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from http://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2024/11/economic-inequality.html