[Episode 148] In today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast, I spoke with Dr. Terry Northcut, Lucian and Carol Welch Matusak Endowed Professor at Loyola University Chicago's School of Social Work about psychodynamic theory as a framework for understanding human development. Dr. Northcut is an expert in social work pedagogy, religion and spirituality in clinical social work, and bridging psychodynamic and cognitive-behavioral therapy. If you’re curious about that last pairing, check out her 2025 text with coauthor Shveta Kumaria, Psychodynamic and Cognitive Behavioral Theory and Practice – Talking Across the Divide.
Dr. Northcut talks about how psychodynamic theory offers conceptual scaffolding for understanding our internal worlds and how early experiences continue to leave a lasting imprint. You'll learn about the epigenetic principle, how repeated interactions, particularly in childhood, generalize into "working models" or "templates" that then play out in all our relationships. We talk about how psychodynamic theory recognizes developmental deficits and how it is strength-based. Along the way, Dr. Northcut acknowledges the role of attachment, trauma, and the importance of neurobiology (the focus of Episode 147 with our Loyola University Chicago colleague, Dr. Jim Marley).
Dr. Northcut uses a lot of psychodynamic terms like selfobject, narcissistic injury, and average expectable environment. She defines them in the episode, and I’ve created a glossary of key terms and list of referenced works.
Download MP3 [42:34]
Bio
Dr. Terry B. Northcut teaches in the MSW and PhD programs on social work pedagogy, religion and spirituality in clinical social work, and bridging psychodynamic and cognitive-behavioral therapy. Dr. Northcut has also taught at the University of Tennessee, University of Southern California, Smith College, and Gondar University in Ethiopia. She has published extensively in teaching, religion, and spirituality, integrating psychodynamic and CBT, and social work in Ethiopia. Dr. Northcut serves as the Faculty Facilitator for the Loyola Graduate School Teaching Effectiveness Seminar 2024-2025 overseeing the mentoring of new instructors. She also serves as the coordinator of the Supervision Training and Education Program (STEP) in collaboration with the Social Work Practice Fellows Program (SWPF) at Adelphi University. In addition, she is collaborating with interdisciplinary colleagues to better prepare nontraditional PhD applicants to apply for and succeed in doctoral education through the Creating Equitable, Accessible Doctoral Education (CEADE) program. Dr. Northcut received funding from READI 2024-25 to coordinate training for faculty to better mentor diverse students. Dr. Northcut continues to practice, supervise, and consult as a licensed clinical social worker in Chicago as well as Coordinate the Institute for Advanced Psychotherapy in the SSW.
Transcript
Introduction
Hey there podcast listeners, Jonathan here. Have you ever wondered why you and your siblings, despite growing up in the same family, turned out so differently? Or maybe you’ve wondered why certain patterns seem to repeat in your relationships, no matter how much you try to change them? Well, in today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast, we're going to answer these and other questions by looking at psychodynamic theory – not as a therapy model but as a way of understanding human development.
And, to help us with this is my colleague at Loyola University Chicago’s School of Social Work, Dr. Terry Northcut. Dr. Northcut is an expert in social work pedagogy, religion and spirituality in clinical social work, and bridging psychodynamic and cognitive-behavioral therapy.
And if you’re curious about that last pairing, check out her 2025 text with coauthor Shveta Kumaria, Psychodynamic and Cognitive Behavioral Theory and Practice – Talking Across the Divide.
In today’s conversation we explore how psychodynamic theory offers conceptual scaffolding for understanding our internal worlds and how early experiences continue to leave a lasting imprint. You'll learn about the epigenetic principle, how repeated interactions, particularly in childhood, generalize into "working models" or "templates" that then play out in all our relationships. We talk about how psychodynamic theory recognizes developmental deficits and how it is strength-based. Along the way, Dr. Northcut acknowledges the role of attachment, trauma, and the importance of neurobiology (the focus of Episode 147 with Dr. Jim Marley).
Now, Dr. Northcut uses a lot of psychodynamic terms, like selfobject, narcissistic injury, and average expectable environment. She defines them in the episode, and I’ve created a glossary of key terms that you can find on the social work podcast website. Also on the website is a transcript of today’s interview and links to her books and articles. If you’re listening to this episode and haven’t subscribed, please do so.
And without further ado, on to episode 148 of the Social Work Podcast : Psychodynamic Theory and Human Development: Interview with Dr. Terry Northcut.
Interview
Jonathan Singer : Terry, thanks so much for being here and talking with us about psychodynamic theory and human development.
Terry Northcut : That's a real page turner. Um, happy to be here.
Jonathan Singer : Um, I think most people think about psychodynamic in terms of therapy, right? How do you talk to people or what sort of things do you look for? But it's also a developmental theory. So, what makes psychodynamic developmental theory or what is it about psychodynamic theory that informs our understanding of human development?
Terry Northcut : I think you know one of the misnomers about psychodynamic theory is that oh that's Freud you know blleh you know that's not anything that relates to me in my world but um and I think that was what interested me about Freud was that it was something that I couldn't quite understand but it was so much more complicated than the oral phallic blah blah blah. So, um the epigenetic principle just the idea that what happens at one stage influences the next stage and that it doesn't mean like Freud was too deterministic I think but it doesn't mean that if you didn't get something at one stage you know you're done you know you can't grow from there but it does mean that it has a lasting imprint so when I think of it it's it's like Bowlby's attachment theory is a psychodynamic theory because these early relationships form um templates that then we enact throughout life. It doesn't mean that we don't ever change them or modify them, but we really do kind of walk in the same shadow of our childhood. You can grow beyond that, but it isn't necessarily that it's never not relevant.
Jonathan Singer : Uh so I think that's really interesting that idea of epigenetic, right? The idea that something happens and then other things sort of come from that. Could you say a little bit more about that and how that relates to to to dynamic theory?
Terry Northcut : Yes. I think what's so interesting is it's not like it's static like something happens and that means you know you're doomed you know uh you know it's like everybody oh yeah how was I potty trained you know and it's not about that so much it's just about the development is so dynamic that this will turn the direction in a certain way and then um and then the person acts in a certain way in the environment and then the environment responds. So it can change course and then what's so interesting is how that individual then processes what has happened to them and then interacts with the environment eliciting different kinds of responses. So it's very much like Daniel Stern talked about the repeated interactions that get generalized you know over and over.
Jonathan Singer : I don't know what that is.
Terry Northcut : Okay. Daniel Stern did the infant research that really kind of refuted a lot of Margaret Mahler's work. Um not that the idea of separation-individuation doesn't have validity, but he really challenged some of those uh her early autistic and symbiotic phases by really um he had the technology and the advanced knowledge to know so much more is going on in infancy than what Mahler even dreamed of. But what's interesting is he talked about it's not that a parent does like one time yells at their child and they're scarred for life.
Jonathan Singer : Thank goodness.
Terry Northcut : Yes, I know. Or we'd all be sunk. You know, we wouldn't be sitting here today. Um but it's a matter of generally what happens is parents relate to their children with a particular attachment style that they developed uh you know in their childhood and then the interactions are um colored by this attachment style. So that it represents a pattern that the parent does over and over and over. So those repeated interactions between the parent and child get generalized to a particular working model or template which then gets played out with peer relationships, love relationships, um friendships. And so that's the neat thing. Then when you're looking at it in practice, you don't have to necessarily ask a client, so what was going on when you were two? You know, that traumatized you, but you want to just know about their relationships in the present because that will have seeds of what was going on in their childhood. It doesn't necessarily mean uh it's verbatim or, you know, lock step, but it gives you a window. If all the relationships that they have now are disappointing, chances are pretty high that uh a lot of the interactions in childhood didn't allow them to develop a sense of trust and competency and the world around them and trust. Yeah.
Jonathan Singer : I like how you made that connection between um the uh sort of repeated patterns. Yes. And being able to see uh the value of a developmental perspective in practice because you can say, "Oh, what has happened over and over and over again in your life?" And then and then there's the assumption that this has some origin in childhood.
Terry Northcut : Yes. And I think what's also fascinating to me in terms of then when that gets reenacted and not every client that I see or have seen reenacts it with me, but there are those occasions where it is reenacted with me and then it's fascinating to me to think about, well, I didn't think I was, you know, acting in that way, but yet they're perceiving that. So, what is happening in the dynamic between the two of us? That of course there perhaps is something that I'm doing but also what is this uh reenacting for them and what makes it so evocative for them.
Jonathan Singer : And you're alluding to transference and countertransference there.
Terry Northcut : Yes. Yes. Very much so. Because there's also the bias about transference and countertransference is if every interaction with clients is tinged with that and I do think there is elements of that because we have transference you know with the barista or the, you know, with uh the hairdresser or whatever we have.
Jonathan Singer : I love my barista.
Terry Northcut : Yeah. And I love my hairdresser. [laughter] You know, I do think we we expect certain kinds of interactions and a lot of times when we tease those apart, it's like what is that all about? You know, and it's from something from childhood or just a pattern that gets established that I also then act in ways that reinforce that pattern. Um so the transference and countertransference I think also gives you a window regardless of how you're working with clients to know there's more here than meets the eye and I think that is more of a compliment to clients because I think our tendency historically has been to assume only upper class uh white clients that have been to college can utilize transference and and that's bogus because we all have it and I think it does um all of our clients a disservice to not allow that they have meaning you know and patterns just like anybody else. So I think the transference and countertransference gives you a way to articulate and talk about uh these relationship patterns.
Jonathan Singer : So, getting back to this idea of uh development and repeated patterns what are some of the things that psychodynamic theory as a developmental model um says have to happen in the developmental process.
Terry Northcut : Okay.
Jonathan Singer : I think um depending on which theorist you're talking about um, right? Because there are a lot of them. So, do you want to do you want to pick one and, and run with that and then maybe we can talk about another?
Terry Northcut : Yeah. I think probably you know it's so oral anal phallic has lost its utility. I think although I have found certain clients who've been um pervasively traumatized from early childhood that there are times with the oral and corporative and some of the old literature that talked about oral aggression and those kinds of things. That was the subjective way I felt when I sat with them is the desperation. And so oral kind of captured it for me. But I think it's much more useful to either think about Erikson even with all of his limitations of a theory. The idea of if children don't have basic trust that their needs will be met, then how are they going to take initiative or how are they going to demonstrate any sense of autonomy or independence regardless of cultural variations. You take that basic sense of trust and use it as energy uh or money in the bank to kind of uh go out into the world and try. By the time children get to school, their job is to be industrious and to work, you know, at learning and socializing. And if you don't have some sense of confidence and trust that the world is an okay place, you're not going to want to risk trying things and you'll be much more inhibited about that. Whatever your talents or skills will be, you just are not as adventurous. Um.
Jonathan Singer : So let me just say so you start out by saying uh by mentioning the epigenetic principle.
Terry Northcut : Yes.
Jonathan Singer : And here you are saying that when you start school, it's that time of industry. Yes. Right. Um and that if you don't have that trust, then it's going to be hard to be successful in that. But you're not saying that you can't.
Terry Northcut : Correct.
Jonathan Singer : be successful if there was some sort of disruption in that trust or or or if mistrust was sort of the resolution of that. Could you talk about that?
Terry Northcut : Sure. Um I think one of the neat things about how the theories evolved over the time is well is also how we've been able to research things more about what let's flush out what that trust looks like and let's flush out what object relations look like. Those are those were static concepts that since then we've been able to elaborate on. So let's say a child isn't able to successfully resolve the stage as Erikson might use the terminology and is more mistrustful. What happens and Anna Freud actually was pretty good about talking about developmental lines is that we develop in so many different ways. So, children compensate . If they're not feeling uh secure in one area, they may uh move ahead in another area and be able to do very well. For example, like in resiliency, sometimes um the skill is being able to extract from an environment, you know, which seems very little to anybody else like a grandmother or a neighbor who, you know, shows them attention a little bit each day. day um they're able to use that as energy to fuel their activity in something or they may do a particular activity with a grandparent and so they can excel in that area. So children compensate and we all do if something isn't going so well or feels a little frightening will regroup and try something else. So, we don't stop uh you know just because something went awry or wasn't an average expectable environment . of what we need to be healthy and grow. We just find other ways around it. Now, sometimes those ways are shorter term. And that's where like when I'm working with clients, I tell them this was probably the most healthy way you could adapt. And it's just unfortunate it's not working anymore. So, I think sometimes what children are forced to do is choose styles of working that work in the short run. And then by the time they hit adolescence or young adulthood, then they find those styles don't work anymore when they're trying to form relationships and trust I think can translate into uh difficulty and intimacy later on. Um but it doesn't mean somebody can't be competent in all those areas.
Jonathan Singer : I really like this idea that uh we are kind of innately drawn towards finding the things that we need for healthy development. And so, if nurturing and affection isn't present in 10 of the 11 people in our life that we're drawn to that 11th person.
Terry Northcut : Yes. And I think that's so encouraging and a lot of all of that came out of the ego psychology movement because it really moved us from thinking that we're just a victim of all these conflicts and drives to thinking that we all have innate givens that allow us to adapt providing we have an average expectable environment .
Jonathan Singer : So, this is the second time that you've used that phrase average expectable environment. Can you say what that is.
Terry Northcut : Sure. Um Heinz Hartmann talked about that instead of thinking that we're only born with drives that we all are born with what he called an undifferentiated matrix which is not easy language but it.
Jonathan Singer : that sounds very confusing and and and the drives that you're referring to or that Heinz Hartmann was referring to are are the drives of aggression and pleasure is.
Terry Northcut : Yes. Yes. And now we think about it or at least I think about it you know there's so many people that this is their life's work. work, but I tend to think of it as pleasure and assertiveness. You know, I kind of like Nancy Chodorow's approach to it more of object seeking and autonomy or um assertion, I think, is better. But Hartmann was uh loyal to Freud, but he was really talking about I think we have a pool of resources that we're born with out of which these other areas develop. And so that means we can develop in ways uh and capitalize on our talents and strengths and gifts. As long as there is what he called an average expectable environment . Now the trouble with his use of that term, the good news, the bad news, the good news was it broadened the idea of development to being influenced by the environment more so than Freud allowed. The bad news is he doesn't really say what it is. So, it was kind of like this is a great idea, Heinz, but it doesn't, you know, we don't get a lot of mileage out of it. So, it's the subsequent theorists then who elaborated like now we know so much about the environment that were kind of like this seems mundane to talk about but at that time he really advanced the theory to consider the environment and we really need all the social workers since then to really talk about what that environment looks like.
Jonathan Singer : And so the average expectable environment is what we in social work just think about, sort of, the sociocultural context the things that are sort of like water in a fish tank.
Terry Northcut : Yes.
Jonathan Singer : Yes. The “normal things” that any child needs to develop in terms of nurturing um the physical conditions as well as the social and psychological and spiritual I guess.
Terry Northcut : So, the average expectable environment I think is a helpful concept but we've heard like Winnicott talks about the facilitating environment. Everybody take has a little different language and spin on it and perhaps popular book sells you know um from that but so now we take it for granted what's required but it all of that we really shouldn't historically take it for granted.
Jonathan Singer : you were talking about the ego psychologist sort of taking a different tack than just those basic drives of assertion and pleasure and what did they do.
Terry Northcut : well one of the interesting things is Freud's theory was very much a conflict theory and ego psychologists shifted it to really think about um innate strengths and givens that people this drive for mastery you were talking about in terms of that we all have this competency or the drive for competency and that was considered an ego function that we want to master what's around us. Now certainly that can be beaten down and thwarted um but generally um everybody wants to do well they want to thrive they don't want to just you know languish. Um so if they the egos really help us see that people want to be competent. So when you have that basic understanding of human development that people want to be successful and competent in their life and I don't mean in the monetary sense but just have a um a satisfying life then it tilts it. So, the as a clinician then you go in assuming people want not good. And so, then you're uh starting in a different place. Now, it's not to say that there aren't deficits. You know, I think you have to temper the idea of the strive for mastery with the idea that there are things that people need to develop. And um neuropsychology is now showing us that those things are the very same things that egos are talking about. We need relationships. Um it's just we're now able to think of it in a much more rich way than just thinking about an object that gratifies or an object that fulfills environmental needs. Now we can think about it in terms of what are the qualities we need in these relationships such as um you know that our brains work in a way that allow us to feel empathy or allow us to feel that somebody else can feel what we're feeling. And so now we have a much better understanding what that is. But that all began with Hartmann and you know we had to start from somewhere and so it's great now to see how we get such a fuller understanding of what components or what comprises a good relationship.
Jonathan Singer : So I think it's really interesting how you're framing psychodynamic as something that is both strength-based.
Terry Northcut : Yes.
Jonathan Singer : Because I think a lot of people don't think of psychodynamic as strength-based um but also that you are saying that is um value in in acknowledging uh deficit and not just deficit in terms of like my dad was mean but in terms of like what might not be present in somebody's development. Did I get that right?
Terry Northcut : Sure. Because I think when somebody has a significant other that is present, what we gain from that is ability to make judgments, to make decisions, to form relationships. We get all these different skills from that. And so, if somebody does not have that experience, it's going to interfere with their ability to assess a situation and determine whether this is frightening or upsetting or not. And so, then they're kind of coming to the game without the right equipment. Um to use a bad metaphor, but you know, they just don't have some of the tools. And it's very I think there's just as big of a danger um in overlooking that people don't have certain skills as there is in overlooking strengths. Uh and sometimes there's this um bit of research that showed that social workers obviously, you know, which we'd like to see, see strengths, but they were more vulnerable to not recognizing deficits because they were so focused on strengths. And so, if there would be a way to balance that, I certainly would rather people err in the direction of strengths, but you shortchange somebody if you assume they can do something that their brain just didn't have that experience of developing. And you know, once you know that, then you can think about ways in which to enhance it so that it can develop. And that's what's so fun to watch because then the client can make these advances. They may use the prior template to be tentative about the advances, but then they can go to town as they you were there with them to match them lock step without knowing about about their development.
Jonathan Singer : That really does put a different frame on it. Like, you know, if I was talking to a 12-year-old or a 24-year-old or an 84-year-old talking about their past. Wouldn't be this sort of sort of random like tell me about your mother, right? Because you're looking for specific things. You're like, what might not have existed in your environment um such that you weren't able to get these things rather than it's kind of stereotypical like you wanted to marry your mother kind of thing.
Terry Northcut : Yes, it's so much more than that. And I think that's the gift that we overlook from psychodynamic theory is it really um my favorite phrase is conceptual scaffolding for understanding the internal experience and I think that's the real gift of psychodynamic theory is it gives you a way to understand the subjective world. Um we have lots of other approaches and techniques that are helpful. But if somebody's subjective world is in a certain way that interferes with them taking advantage of those other things um then we can have you know every brilliant intervention in the world but they won't be able to take advantage of it. And so that's why I you know I found that was how I like to practice was in that subjective world that seemed to be getting in the way. For example, Mahler's separation-individuation is very limited to the western culture. However, for some clients who are trying to do things that were different than their families, they may be inhibited from doing that if they didn't have that experience of being able to be in a facilitating partnership with a parent. And so, they're hesitant or just absolutely will not um try anything different. So, they're stuck in this immobilized place. And so, So, what the theory can allow you to hypothesize is as they make steps, it's going to create more anxiety. And how do you help them ride out these anxious periods to allow themselves to get to the place where they can experience self-efficacy and competence and this new thing that they're trying?
Jonathan Singer : So, as you're talking, you're referencing a bunch of different psychodynamic theories, right? You sort of referenced you know, kind of drive and then ego and that sort of stuff. And one of the things that I'm getting is that uh regardless of which theory, it's important to know how to think about what those theories are saying.
Terry Northcut : Yes. That's right. I know because one of the problems with, like, looking at psychoanalytic theory at s that it's summarized in a lot of textbooks, you know, in like a couple pages is that, you know, 20 plus volumes of somebody's thinking over the course of their lifetime. And one of the things Freud did that was interesting and useful at the time was make a theory that was internally consistent. So, if you um if somebody had a deficit in one area, there was a way to explain how that happened and what would it take then for that to get unstuck or um be completed and move forward. A lot of theories are not able to be that elegant um because we're taking into so much more information these days than what Freud had at his disposal. But it is um interesting or helpful to remember uh what the British school or Winnicott and Bowlby offered because they each person or each school allowed us to further develop our thinking of what development needed in order to proceed, you know, as um enjoyable or as uh minimizing problems as possible.
Jonathan Singer : And so, do you have an example of something that uh Freud would have said or maybe Bowlby or Winnicott or any of these other folks would have said that that was uh well if there's a problem in this one area then this would be what you would do in this other area to address it. Right? An example of that internal consistency.
Terry Northcut : Sure. Uh I think of it in terms of ego psychology . If there was a problem um the Gertude and Ruben Blank wrote these series of books. I called them the Star Wars trilogy because it's Ego Psychology one two and three and beyond ego psychology. But it does talk about you want to support a client's highest level of development. Um, so if you undershoot somebody, it can have the impact of not capitalizing on their strengths. And I can remember a client I saw where I assumed he wasn't able to function, not thinking he was telling me that he was very depressed. And so, I was trying to respond in a way that overfunctioned. You know, I was trying to assume those ego functions for him that I thought he couldn't do. What I wasn't looking at was in his behavior. He was managing to come to the center, come for an appointment. He was interacting and doing these other things, but I was only listening to the content of what he was saying and I wasn't looking beyond that. So, my therapeutic mistake uh big time was to assume that he couldn't function. So, I set up the process where I checked in with him each day, assuming he couldn't negotiate the day. He got worse. Imagine that. Because I couldn't match uh what he could do. Once I pulled back and allow for what he could do and then made sure to balance that with hearing how uh hopeless he felt, then he was able to re-regulate himself and um function at a level that he could. And then he had also experienced me as being supportive. So, it wasn't like an empathic failure.
Jonathan Singer : Okay. So, you had this guy that was doing these things and and you saw it as kind of an underfunctioning thing and so you were overfunctioning and so it was this this dynamic and he was getting worse.
Terry Northcut : Yes.
Jonathan Singer : Um. So that's a really interesting clinical situation, but how does that play out in terms of your thinking? of development.
Terry Northcut : What was so apparent to me was I was hearing the depression. I wasn't hearing how furious he was about being in this was divorce situation and he was enraged um that his wife had left and which was completely understandable. However, you know, terms of my transference and countertransference, I stayed away from anger too, you know, in some extent. So, as along with the sadness, I was missing the aggression part of him. And as long as I didn't hear that, he was continuing to act out in a way to hide the aggression. And so that was showing itself in a great deal of passivity. So in development, one of the things that I could hypothesize was that assertion, aggression, anything that uh spoke to or capitalized on that ability had been thwarted
Jonathan Singer : You mean while he was growing up?
Terry Northcut : Yes. And chances are um he grew up in an uh a family system. Uh there were a lot of religious background where there was uh a particular um uh uh viewpoint that aggression or anger was sinful.
Jonathan Singer : And you knew this about him?
Terry Northcut : Yes. And so if anger is viewed as sinful then you grow up conflicted about anytime you feel angry and then something went bad would happen. like be punished or you know and that could take any forms. And chances are um talking with him in the present about the difficulty in expressing his anger to his ex-wife um would allow for him to remember then not that it was a static memory but remember no you know I've never been good with anger and it wouldn't be that I'd go in for the kill to kind of like that his mother screwed up but it's more just what are your experiences in relationships with being angry. What usually happens and what the theory would say is that there would emerge some ideas about usually I would be punished you know sometimes severely if I experienced that or express that. So how that translates into the present then is that has to all be masked and not that all depression is anger turned inward but in this particular case the more he tried to stifle being angry, the more depressed he got and the more helpless and hopeless he felt. And so when I treated him as if he were helpless, that just reinforced a bad cycle for him. And it wasn't until I could make it okay that and to do that I normalize, you know, most people would really be angry. You know, she took everything you had, you know, or whatever the situation was. That allowed him to begin to feel that it was acceptable to be angry. That that didn't mean he had to behave in a way, but he could feel those feelings and be okay.
Jonathan Singer : So, this client that you're talking about who was angry and you know maybe uh didn't have his anger um validated when he was a kid or was taught that it was bad. I know that one of the critiques of psychodynamic theory or at least Freudian theory is that development ends at like age 10. Like once you're 10 you're done. And so, if you if your anger wasn't validated before the age of 10, then you're just kind of playing catch-up the rest of your life. Is that true? Like is that an accurate reflection of dynamic theory and in development?
Terry Northcut : I think there's certainly Freud did kind of have, you know, once you're through adolescence, good luck. You know, that most significant development kind of stops after you go through the genital phase. And we really have to thank um Kohut for, you know, turning the ship a bit to appreciate that we need relationships throughout life and that these relationships can alter our self-concept and our um self-cohesion. So he used the concept of selfobjects as one word. Early on he used a little hyphen in there but now it's used as one word which the computer always rejects on spellcheck but it's um… You know, a selfobject was something other than yourself or something that could perform necessary psychological functions for you. And he had ideas about what those functions were. He thought there was a tripartite self that needed mirroring um that had um an idealized parental or something to look up to and also twinship. So that you needed these three experiences to have cohesive sense of self.
Jonathan Singer : And what do you mean by twinship?
Terry Northcut : Twinship where you can experience other people like yourself. Um for example, um when students are having a hard time uh finishing a paper, you really don't want to talk to somebody who's already done and finished it two weeks early. You want to talk to somebody who can say, "Yes, I'm in the same boat as you are." Or if you're struggling, all of us at certain periods of time need somebody that can be more knowledgeable or somebody that can say we're wonderful or we need somebody that can be like ourselves and we just vary on what we need at different times and that's where the skill of a clinician is is understanding what role the client is needing in this moment and then the more challenging clients sometimes that shifts within your interaction with them in one day. But um the cool thing is that the person that you use, you know, of to perform those functions changes over your lifetime. So, a partner can help facilitate your um achieving a more cohesive sense of self or you know that you're more um res you're not so vulnerable to fragmenting, you know, like some days are so bad for everybody that they go home and feel like, you know, they're a raw nerve. And I think so, so some of us can use uh music or some of us can use ideals to look up to that can help us feel more cohesive. So, we need these selfobjects throughout life and at different periods of time they need to be live people and I think that's true throughout life, but at other periods of time, we're able to supplement with other activities or passions that allow us to feel cohesive and whole as well.
Jonathan Singer : And and all the things you've been talking about, you you mentioned Kohut. But just to be clear, you're talking about self-psychology.
Terry Northcut : Yes. Yes. Self-psychology , which you know, in the beginning, Kohut was very loyal to Freud or at least in the very beginning. And then gradually he found that he just didn't get therapeutic mileage out of using or making interpretations around the Oedipal conflict. And he found that it was more normal for people to have narcissistic issues and that the aggression only occurred as a result of narcissistic injury that we weren't all rageful human beings, but when somebody missed uh empathizing with us, that would be when we would get angry. And it was a much more or I found that clinically very useful, particularly in sessions where all of a sudden a client then is angry or upset or um something is off center. Then I can think back, okay, was there something in that I just said or I missed saying that could have set them all? off, you know, or set them on edge. And so it's very helpful as a process to think about in what way am I performing these functions or not performing the functions.
Jonathan Singer : And just quickly, um, you mentioned narcissistic injury. Yes. And I think that, you know, we think about narcissism as like this really bad thing, like you're a narcissist and, you know, there might be political candidates that are, you know, being sort of labeled as narcissists and talked about in bad ways, but you're not talking about a narcissistic injury in that way, right?
Terry Northcut : No. All of us are vulnerable in narcissistic injuries . You know, most when you think about clients who are coming that they're feeling depressed or that they've had different losses, for you to wish them happy holidays is a narcissistic injury, you know, because their experience is that it isn't a happy holiday. And then we experience this on a daily basis. Somebody doesn't uh compliment you on a new outfit or somebody uh doesn't tell you did a good job on a presentation and at that particular time we needed it. Other times we may not need it. So, the narcissistic injury stems from the idea of a parental child relationship where the parent in tune is in tune with the child and knows what they need and then can back off as the child develops. You do want to compliment a child who cleans his room. But for a 40-year-old, you don't want to say, "You did a good job picking up your room." So, the parent then can titrate or back off. Narcissistic injury has to be something that occurs because it's what that person is needing at that time and they're not getting it. So, it doesn't have to mean something pathological at all.
Jonathan Singer : So, Terry, this has been really interesting. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about psychodynamic theory and development. So, what's the bottom line takeaway for you about why people should know about psychodynamic theories of development.
Terry Northcut : I think it a lot of times we wonder like when we come from the same family, how is it that I'm so different than my siblings or you look at a family in your neighborhood and you think, boy, those two kids are really different. Uh what happened? And we know that parents are different with each child. But we also know all of us interpret events and experience things differently. And we all our brains are wired to make meaning differently and because of the patterns we develop that screens out other kinds of relationships. So I think psychodynamic theory gives you that term I used earlier the conceptual scaffolding to think about um what is the this person's experience and how is that perhaps getting in their way of what they want to do . Um and it doesn't negate that there may be a social environment that is oppressing or um impinging on the individual, but that individual still makes meaning of that experience. And as a clinician, it helps me understand or explore for where are there things in their internal world that may get in their way.
Jonathan Singer : So Terry, thank you so much for talking with us today on the podcast about this topic of psychodynamic theory and development.
Terry Northcut : You're very welcome. Happy to do it.
~~~ END ~~~
References and Resources
Here are references for the key authors and books mentioned in Episode 148, including seminal texts and foundational works often cited in psychodynamic and developmental theory:
Sigmund Freud
- Freud, S. (1923). The Ego and the Id . SE, 19:12-66.
- Freud, S. (1905). Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality . SE, 7.
- Freud, S. (1917). Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis . SE, 15-16.
Freud’s stages of psychosexual development and theories of drive, conflict, and internal consistency are outlined across these works.
John Bowlby
- Bowlby, J. (1969). Attachment and Loss: Vol. 1. Attachment . New York: Basic Books.
- Bowlby, J. (1973). Attachment and Loss: Vol. 2. Separation: Anxiety and Anger .
- Bowlby, J. (1980). Attachment and Loss: Vol. 3. Loss: Sadness and Depression .
These volumes lay the foundation for attachment theory and the notion of internal working models.
Daniel Stern
- Stern, D. N. (1985). The Interpersonal World of the Infant: A View from Psychoanalysis and Developmental Psychology . New York: Basic Books.
Stern’s work used infant research to challenge earlier psychoanalytic models of infancy and emphasized the role of dyadic interaction in shaping internal models.
Margaret Mahler
- Mahler, M. S., Pine, F., & Bergman, A. (1975). The Psychological Birth of the Human Infant: Symbiosis and Individuation . New York: Basic Books.
This book describes the stages of separation-individuation and was influential in understanding early object relations.
Erik Erikson
- Erikson, E. H. (1950). Childhood and Society . New York: Norton.
- Erikson, E. H. (1963). Youth: Change and Challenge .
- Erikson, E. H. (1968). Identity: Youth and Crisis .
Erikson introduced the psychosocial stages of development, which expanded Freud’s psychosexual model into lifelong development.
Anna Freud
- Freud, A. (1965). Normality and Pathology in Childhood: Assessments of Development . New York: International Universities Press.
- Freud, A. (1936). The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defence . London: Hogarth Press.
Known for developmental lines and defense mechanisms, Anna Freud’s work emphasized child development and adaptive functioning.
Heinz Hartmann
- Hartmann, H. (1939/1958). Ego Psychology and the Problem of Adaptation . New York: International Universities Press.
Hartmann introduced the concept of the "average expectable environment" and reframed ego functions as adaptive rather than conflict-based.
Donald Winnicott
- Winnicott, D. W. (1965). The Maturational Processes and the Facilitating Environment: Studies in the Theory of Emotional Development . London: Hogarth Press.
- Winnicott, D. W. (1971). Playing and Reality . London: Tavistock.
His ideas about the facilitating environment and the "good enough mother" remain central to developmental and relational theory.
Nancy Chodorow
- Chodorow, N. (1978). The Reproduction of Mothering: Psychoanalysis and the Sociology of Gender . Berkeley: University of California Press.
Chodorow brought feminist insights into psychoanalysis, reworking Freud’s drives as relational and socialized processes.
Heinz Kohut
- Kohut, H. (1971). The Analysis of the Self: A Systematic Approach to the Psychoanalytic Treatment of Narcissistic Personality Disorders . New York: International Universities Press.
- Kohut, H. (1977). The Restoration of the Self .
Founder of self-psychology, Kohut redefined narcissism and introduced the concept of selfobjects and the tripartite self.
Gertrude and Rubin Blanck
- Blanck, G., & Blanck, R. (1974). Ego Psychology: Theory and Practice . New York: Columbia University Press.
- Blanck, G., & Blanck, R. (1979). Beyond Ego Psychology: Developmental Approach to the Treatment of the Psychopathologies of the Self . New York: Columbia University Press.
- Blanck, G., & Blanck, R. (1986). Ego Psychology II: Theory and Practice . New York: Columbia University Press.
Dr. Northcut jokingly referred to these as the “Star Wars trilogy” of ego psychology textbooks, these works expand ego psychological theory with clinical examples and developmental models.
Timeline of Social Work Podcast Episodes on Psychodynamic Theory
Here’s a timeline of the Social Work Podcast episodes on psychodynamic theory, including direct links to each episode where available:
February 2007
Episodes 5 & 6 – The Contributions of Freud and Adler
🎧 Episode #5 - Freudian psychoanalysis https://socialworkpodcast.com/2007/02/freudian-psychoanalysis.html
🎧 Episode #6 - Adlerian psychoanalysis https://socialworkpodcast.com/2007/02/adlerian-psychotherapy.html
December 2009
🎧 Episode #54 - Psychoanalytic Treatment in Contemporary Social Work Practice: An Interview with Dr. Carol Tosone https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2009/12/psychoanalytic-treatment-in.html
June 2012
🎧 Episode #72 - Psychodynamic therapy for vulnerable, at-risk and oppressed populations: Interview with Joan Berzoff, M.S.W., Ed.D. https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2012/06/psychodynamic-therapy-with-vulnerable.html
March 2015
🎧 #96 - Attachment-based family therapy (ABFT) for depressed and suicidal youth: Interview with Guy Diamond, Ph.D., and Suzanne Levy, Ph.D. https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2015/03/ABFT.html
November 2015
🎧 Episode #99 - Becoming a clinical social worker: Interview with Dr. Danna Bodenheimer https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2015/11/Bodenheimer.html
November 2016
🎧 Episode #107 - Self Psychology for Social Workers: Interview with Tom Young, Ph.D. https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2016/11/self-psychology.html
June 2024
🎧 Episode #138 - Embracing therapeutic complexity: Interview with Patricia Gianotti, PhD [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2024/06/gianotti.html
Glossary of Key Terms from Episode 148
Attachment Theory (Bowlby): A psychodynamic theory that posits early relationships form templates that are then enacted throughout life. These early templates serve as enduring imprints, influencing future relationships, though they can be changed or modified.
Average Expectable Environment : A concept introduced by Heinz Hartmann, it broadened the understanding of human development by emphasizing the influence of the environment. While Hartmann did not precisely define it, it refers to the socio-cultural context and the "normal things" a child needs for healthy development, including nurturing and appropriate physical, social, psychological, and spiritual conditions. It's viewed as a "pool of resources" that allows individuals to develop their talents and strengths.
Compensation : The process by which individuals, especially children, find alternative ways to develop or adapt if they encounter difficulties or feel insecure in one area. This means that if an average expectable environment isn't present, individuals will seek other avenues for growth.
Conceptual Scaffolding : A phrase used to describe how psychodynamic theory offers a framework for understanding an individual's internal, subjective experience. It helps clinicians explore aspects of a client's inner world that might be impeding their progress or goals.
Countertransference : The phenomenon where a therapist's own unconscious relational patterns or emotional biases are activated in response to a client, often mirroring or reacting to the client's transference. It highlights that all interactions, including therapeutic ones, are "tinged" with these relational patterns.
Daniel Stern : An infant researcher whose work significantly challenged earlier developmental theories, such as those by Margaret Mahler, particularly regarding infant capabilities and early phases of development. Stern emphasized that repeated interactions, rather than single traumatic events, shape development and are generalized into internal working models.
Developmental Lines (Anna Freud) : A concept that highlights how development unfolds in multiple, interconnected ways, allowing individuals to progress in some areas even if others are not fully resolved. It suggests that children can compensate for difficulties in one area by excelling in another.
Drives : In earlier psychodynamic theory, these referred to fundamental innate urges such as aggression and pleasure. Later interpretations, influenced by theorists like Nancy Chodorow, reframe these as object-seeking and assertion/autonomy.
Ego Psychology : A movement within psychodynamic theory that shifted focus from innate conflicts and drives to the individual's inherent strengths and capacity for adaptation. It emphasizes that humans possess an innate "drive for mastery" and competency, striving to thrive and lead satisfying lives. This perspective is considered strength-based, assuming clients want to be successful and competent.
Epigenetic Principle : A core idea in psychodynamic developmental theory stating that what occurs at one developmental stage significantly influences and lays the groundwork for the next stage. While experiences leave a "lasting imprint," this principle also implies that development is dynamic and individuals can continue to grow and change, not being "doomed" by early challenges.
Facilitating Environment (Winnicott) : A concept similar to the "average expectable environment," referring to the supportive and responsive conditions necessary for healthy development. A "facilitating partnership with a parent" is vital for a child to develop the ability to explore and try new things, even if different from their family.
Internal Consistency : A characteristic of Freud's original theory, meaning that it provided a coherent and interconnected explanation for how developmental deficits occurred and what would be required to resolve or move beyond them.
Margaret Mahler : A theorist known for her work on separation-individuation, which describes the process by which an infant differentiates from the primary caregiver and forms an individual identity. While her ideas have validity, they were challenged by later infant research, and the concept itself may be culturally limited.
Mirroring : A function of a selfobject, particularly in early development, where an individual's grandiosity, talents, or accomplishments are affirmed and validated by another.
Narcissistic Injury : A concept from Self Psychology (Kohut) describing the pain, anger, or feeling "off center" that results when a person's specific need for empathy, validation, or recognition is not met at a particular moment. It is considered a normal human experience and does not necessarily imply pathology.
Psychodynamic Theory : A developmental theory that focuses on how early experiences and relationships create lasting "templates" or patterns that influence an individual's subjective world and interactions throughout life. It helps understand the dynamic interplay between internal processes and environmental responses.
Repeated Interactions : The idea that consistent patterns of behavior and relating between individuals, especially a parent and child, are more influential than isolated events. These repeated interactions lead to the generalization of "working models" or "templates" that shape an individual's future relationships.
Selfobject : A term from Self Psychology (Kohut) that refers to anything (a person, an activity, an ideal) that performs necessary psychological functions for an individual, helping to maintain a cohesive and stable sense of self. Selfobjects are crucial throughout the lifespan, though their specific form and what is needed from them can change over time.
Self Psychology (Kohut) : A school of psychodynamic thought that emphasizes the lifelong need for relationships to maintain self-concept and self-cohesion. Kohut proposed that narcissistic issues are normal, and aggression primarily arises from "narcissistic injury" (failures of empathy), rather than being an innate drive. It conceptualizes a "tripartite self" with specific needs.
Separation-Individuation : A developmental process by which a child gradually separates from a primary caregiver and develops a unique sense of self. While considered valid, its applicability may be limited to Western cultures, and its disruption can inhibit an individual's capacity to try new things.
Templates/Working Models : Internal mental structures or patterns that are formed by early, repeated interactions, particularly with primary caregivers. These templates guide an individual's expectations and behaviors in future relationships, including with peers, friends, and romantic partners.
Transference : The unconscious process in which an individual re-enacts past relational patterns and feelings (often from childhood relationships) onto current relationships, including the therapeutic relationship. It provides a "window" into a client's long-standing relational dynamics.
Tripartite Self : A concept in Kohut's Self Psychology suggesting that for a cohesive sense of self, an individual needs three types of selfobject experiences: mirroring, an idealized parental imago (something to look up to), and twinship.
Twinship : A component of Kohut's tripartite self, referring to the need to experience others as being "like ourselves", providing a sense of shared experience and commonality.
Undifferentiated Matrix : A term used by Heinz Hartmann to describe the innate "pool of resources" that individuals are born with, from which various developmental areas emerge. This concept expanded psychodynamic theory beyond just innate drives to include inherent potential.
APA (7th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2025, August 17). #148 - Psychodynamic Theory and Human Development: Interview with Dr. Terry Northcut [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from https://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2025/08/Northcut.html
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