[Episode 149] In today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast, I spoke with Jennifer Luna, Michelle Woods, and Cindy Snell - co-authors of the NASW Press book The Social Work Career Guidebook: How to Land Your Ideal Job and Build a Legacy.
We spoke about the arc of the social work career. Jennifer shared tips for getting a job. Then Michelle talked about how to prepare for and negotiate after getting a job offer. And Cindy told stories about once you’ve been in a job for a while how to find a new job or change your focus, say from micro to macro social work. We ended with Jennifer talking about branding in social work.
And now, without further ado, on to Episode 149 of the Social Work Podcast: Getting the Social Work Job You Want: Interview with Jennifer Luna, Michelle Woods, and Cindy Snell.
Download MP3 [35:28]
Bios
Jennifer Luna, MSSW, CSWM is a social work career coach, consultant,
author and speaker with over 30 years of experience In career
development and leadership for mission driven leaders and organizations.
She collaborates with schools of social work, the National Association
of Social Workers, and the Council on Social Work Education on
professional development, macro social work, academic branding and
professional identity. Jennifer’s mission is to empower social workers
to achieve their career goals and make a positive impact in the world.
Currently, Jennifer serves as Director of Programs for the Network for
Social Work Management. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferlunamssw/ .
Michelle
Woods, LMSW Clinical and Macro Practice, serves as the Director of
Career Services at the University of Michigan School of Social Work.
With over 25 years of experience, she leads an office focused on
professional development for students and alumni, employer recruitment,
and alumni employment data collection. Michelle earned her BA in
Political Science and MSW at the University of Michigan. https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-woods-063b798/ .
Cindy
Snell, MEd, has been the Director of Career Services and Alumni
Relations at the Boston College School of Social Work for the past
twenty years She has established comprehensive career services offices
for graduate students and alumni at the School of Social Work at Boston
College and previously at the Heller School for Social Policy and
Management at Brandeis University. As a one-person office, she has a
strong understanding of all aspects of the career development process
and continues to be inspired by supporting others in reaching their
goals. https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindysnell/ .
Transcript
Introduction
Hey there podcast listeners, Jonathan here. Today’s episode of the Social Work Podcast tackles something that everyone needs, but not everyone gets: career guidance. Back in 2002, when my sister was getting her MBA, she mentioned that she and her classmates had resume building workshops, mock interviews, and that companies would fly in to interview MBA students for jobs. Wow. The jobs came to you? Just like social work, I thought. Just kidding. As you’ll hear in the interview, I described my job prep as “I hope they will hire me.” Now, I know that a lot has changed in how schools of social work help students prepare for the job market, much of it thanks to today’s guests. Jennifer Luna, Michelle Woods, and Cindy Snell. They are co-authors of the NASW Press book The Social Work Career Guidebook: How to Land Your Ideal Job and Build a Legacy. I spoke with them in June 2025 at the NASW national conference in Chicago, IL.
Jennifer Luna, MSSW, CSWM is a social work career coach, consultant, author and speaker with over 30 years of experience in career development and leadership for mission driven leaders and organizations. Longtime listeners of the podcast might remember Jennifer because she interviewed me way back in 2008 for episode 38 of the Social Work Podcast – the one year anniversary episode (https://socialworkpodcast.blogspot.com/2008/02/one-year-anniversary-interview-with.html). At the time she was 13 years into her 28-year career as the director of the DiNitto Center for Career Services and Alumni Relations at UT-Austin’s Steve Hicks School of Social Work. She collaborates with schools of social work, the National Association of Social Workers, and the Council on Social Work Education on professional development, macro social work, academic branding and professional identity. Jennifer’s mission is to empower social workers to achieve their career goals and make a positive impact in the world. Currently, Jennifer serves as Director of Programs for the Network for Social Work Management. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferlunamssw/
Michelle Woods, LMSW Clinical and Macro Practice, serves as the Director of Career Services at the University of Michigan School of Social Work. With over 25 years of experience, she leads an office focused on professional development for students and alumni, employer recruitment, and alumni employment data collection. Michelle earned her BA in Political Science and MSW at the University of Michigan. https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-woods-063b798/
Cindy Snell, MEd, has been the Director of Career Services and Alumni Relations at the Boston College School of Social Work for the past twenty years She has established comprehensive career services offices for graduate students and alumni at the School of Social Work at Boston College and previously at the Heller School for Social Policy and Management at Brandeis University. As a one-person office, she has a strong understanding of all aspects of the career development process and continues to be inspired by supporting others in reaching their goals. https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindysnell/
Today’s episode follows the arc of the social work career. We start with Jennifer sharing tips for getting a job. Then Michelle talking about how to prepare for and negotiate after getting a job offer. And Cindy talks about once you’ve been in a job for a while how to find a new job or change your focus, say from micro to macro social work. We end with Jennifer talking about branding in social work.
And now, without further ado, on to Episode 149 of the Social Work Podcast: Getting the Social Work Job You Want: Interview with Jennifer Luna, Michelle Woods, and Cindy Snell.
Interview
Jonathan Singer: All right. Jennifer, Cindy, and Michelle, thank you so much for being here on the podcast. Um, Jennifer, so in 1996 when I graduated with my MSW from UT Austin, my approach to looking for a job was who's hiring and who will hire me?. Okay. Is that still the best advice for how a social work grad should look for a job?.
[00:04:45] Jennifer Luna: That's not the best advice and I hope I didn't give you that advice. Um, my thought has always been that luck equals opportunity plus preparation. And so the best thing you can do when you're looking for a job is to prepare for the job search. And that process doesn't just happen overnight. That's something that uh takes maybe even a couple of months to do or if you're a student, you might start doing that prior to entering your final field. But for any social worker, you have to be able to spend some time to prepare. So a good example of this would be uh I've seen some people who prepare for the job the night before that they're going to apply and they don't have a cover letter, their resume is not in order and that not only does that cause anxiety, but oftentimes they make spelling errors or they don't write the materials to fit the job that they want.
So what I encourage people to do is to really have a good resume to start off with and a a good resume uh should entail a professional summary up at the top. That would be something that would kind of summarize all of your skills, transferable skills, and that way an employer doesn't have to read all the way down to the bottom to get to your experience. Once you have that professional summary written, then you can use that for your LinkedIn page. You can use it for your cover letter. You can use it for your elevator pitch. Uh I think the summary is so key to moving your job search along. wrong. Um, in terms of thinking about résumés, just a few tips would be it doesn't have to be one page. Most social work résumés are not one page. Uh, I prefer to have the education down after the experience because uh if you're a new graduate, um, as we're often really proud that we graduated from our schools, that's not usually the first thing employers want to see because they may see, oh, no, new graduate, no experience. So, I recommend a summary, dive into the experience, and then put um the graduation date.
Uh for the cover letter, uh I do think that you should uh tailor the cover letter for every job. Oftentimes though, uh with new applications, like you apply for the job, um through the uh employer or through Indeed or something like that, so you have to answer a lot of questions. That's another thing that takes time. Like sometimes you think you can just submit a resume and a cover letter and then you have to fill out a really long application, but for the cover letter, definitely tailor that towards the job. And uh I'm going to put a plugin for ChatGPT here. Um we have I've actually done a lot of work uh on ChatGPT is using it as a tool for job seekers and it I mean it can be you don't want to have your um letter written by ChatGPT, but you can always upload your resume and ask ChatGPT, how would I be a good fit for this position?. Or if it's a field that you're not that you don't have experience in, you might say something like, how could I transfer my skills in school social work to a hospital setting?. What terms could I use?. And ChatGPT will give you that information. And it I mean, it's a timesaver and it's a tool.
However, if you use it to write your letter, you're going to get caught. Um because there's certain things that ChatGPT has that it adds to every document. Uh I remember there was a time uh when I was writing some sample cover letters when ChatGPT just came out and my son was applying for jobs and I was using ChatGPT to give me ideas and I had it write a cover letter for me because it was brand new. So I just wanted to see what it was going to do. I swear I wasn't going to use it. But anyway, um my son, he asked me, he was in a completely different industry and he said, "Hey, I write a I wrote a letter. Um, can you take a look at it?". And the opening paragraph was exactly the same for hospitality as it was for social work using the words like kindly, I'm strongly in strongly interested in. And so that's how I know that there are certain patterns that employers will see, but it is an excellent tool for doing research.
Jonathan Singer: So my my first job was working for the child and adolescent psychiatric emergency team. And when I got the job, I didn't even think at all about salary negotiation. I was just glad to have a job. I've since learned that one can negotiate salary. So, how should social workers think about salary negotiation?.
[00:13:10] Michelle Woods: Sure. Sure. So, you're not alone. That is a common story that I hear from students and alumni who uh are invested in their job search and they end up getting an an offer and they think they have to accept right away and they don't have uh the ability to take the time to negotiate and that's absolutely incorrect. You as a potential employee are invested in not only doing a great job for an employer but being recognized for the work that you do and that is your salary. And so you should always negotiate your salary when you go in and uh you are in onboarding uh or trying to accept an offer um with an an organization.
And um let me tell you a a story. Uh we had uh one alum who uh actually two stories. So one alum who came in and and uh had reported that they got this really great uh job uh as a school social worker with a charter school. Part of the position had their salary and then um they were concerned about uh benefits. Benefits did not come because it was a charter school and also they uh weren't offered supervision as part of of the their uh job and so they accepted. They didn't think that they had the ability to try to negotiate some of those additional like benefits and supervision. And so u we were talking about that and I was like yes you do you can certainly uh do that and her a friend who got hired a a couple of months after where same program negotiated and was able to get additional benefits, a bonus and money for supervision as part. So, one did not could did not uh negotiate and thought they could not and then the other took the time to do that and got those additional same job same about the same time.
So, remarkable different outcomes there and then I have another story of an alum who um did not negotiate and but could and uh they realized that within their market the market rate they had the ability to add about $2 to $3,000 more for their starting salary because the employer just gave them the bottom uh amount, the starting salary bottom amount. They accepted it. Didn't think they had to negotiate. But they could and realize that they left on the table if it was $2,000 more over five years, they left $10,000 off the table for their salary right there by just not negotiating. So, always negotiate and take the time to prepare for the uh negotiating process. So, if you're not familiar with negotiation, which a lot of social workers aren't, they're afraid to to do that. And um one they think that employers are not expecting them to negotiate and that is a part of the employment process, the hiring process.
You can negotiate so you're not doing anything that other job seekers aren't doing. So you always want to negotiate and you want to practice beforehand. Take the time to do that. Take the time to if you're not familiar with um negotiating, go to to a farmers market or a sales like a um a treasure store or Salvation Army where you can kind of negotiate the price of different items and get in the habit of just going back and forth and being comfortable with having that conversation. But also take the time to research your market value before you go into an interview while you are preparing your documents like your cover letter and your resume. Take some time to research what the market value is for the jobs that you're applying to. And that can be done through informational interviewing, can be done for looking at uh public institutions that have like a universities, hospitals. They often have their salary grades and different um uh employment rates that they pay different levels of employers. So, you know what the starting salary is for different positions and you can look at similar positions to see what the rate is for the job that you're trying to apply to. Also, use your alumni association and your career services offices at your school of social work. We collect a lot of alumni data regarding employer salaries and oftentimes you can you circle back with that person have a conversation about different roles and the market rate that alumni are achieving within those different social work positions. So it it's important to make sure that you know the market rate for the positions that you're applying to.
So when you go in and you get a job offer and a lot of you will will do that and you'll get surprised um at at some point that you actually is working, that you you got the job, and they're offering you the position, and they're going to say that they're going to offer uh the position to you for x amount of money, and you're going to be excited because it happened. And so, you definitely want to take some time to think about the offer because that is at the point that you're going to start the negotiation. It doesn't start any time before you actually get the offer. So, once the offer happens, you say thank you and show your enthusiasm for the position and then ask for a couple of days to review the offer because that's when you're going to go back and look at all of the conversations and the research that you had regarding the market rate to see where that offer falls within the market rate for the job that you've been offered. So, is it high?. Is it low?. What type of room do you have to negotiate?.
[00:04:45] Jennifer Luna: That's not the best advice and I hope I didn't give you that advice. Um, my thought has always been that luck equals opportunity plus preparation. And so the best thing you can do when you're looking for a job is to prepare for the job search. And that process doesn't just happen overnight. That's something that uh takes maybe even a couple of months to do or if you're a student, you might start doing that prior to entering your final field. But for any social worker, you have to be able to spend some time to prepare. So a good example of this would be uh I've seen some people who prepare for the job the night before that they're going to apply and they don't have a cover letter, their resume is not in order and that not only does that cause anxiety, but oftentimes they make spelling errors or they don't write the materials to fit the job that they want.
So what I encourage people to do is to really have a good resume to start off with and a a good resume uh should entail a professional summary up at the top. That would be something that would kind of summarize all of your skills, transferable skills, and that way an employer doesn't have to read all the way down to the bottom to get to your experience. Once you have that professional summary written, then you can use that for your LinkedIn page. You can use it for your cover letter. You can use it for your elevator pitch. Uh I think the summary is so key to moving your job search along. wrong. Um, in terms of thinking about résumés, just a few tips would be it doesn't have to be one page. Most social work résumés are not one page. Uh, I prefer to have the education down after the experience because uh if you're a new graduate, um, as we're often really proud that we graduated from our schools, that's not usually the first thing employers want to see because they may see, oh, no, new graduate, no experience. So, I recommend a summary, dive into the experience, and then put um the graduation date.
Uh for the cover letter, uh I do think that you should uh tailor the cover letter for every job. Oftentimes though, uh with new applications, like you apply for the job, um through the uh employer or through Indeed or something like that, so you have to answer a lot of questions. That's another thing that takes time. Like sometimes you think you can just submit a resume and a cover letter and then you have to fill out a really long application, but for the cover letter, definitely tailor that towards the job. And uh I'm going to put a plugin for ChatGPT here. Um we have I've actually done a lot of work uh on ChatGPT is using it as a tool for job seekers and it I mean it can be you don't want to have your um letter written by ChatGPT, but you can always upload your resume and ask ChatGPT, how would I be a good fit for this position?. Or if it's a field that you're not that you don't have experience in, you might say something like, how could I transfer my skills in school social work to a hospital setting?. What terms could I use?. And ChatGPT will give you that information. And it I mean, it's a timesaver and it's a tool.
However, if you use it to write your letter, you're going to get caught. Um because there's certain things that ChatGPT has that it adds to every document. Uh I remember there was a time uh when I was writing some sample cover letters when ChatGPT just came out and my son was applying for jobs and I was using ChatGPT to give me ideas and I had it write a cover letter for me because it was brand new. So I just wanted to see what it was going to do. I swear I wasn't going to use it. But anyway, um my son, he asked me, he was in a completely different industry and he said, "Hey, I write a I wrote a letter. Um, can you take a look at it?". And the opening paragraph was exactly the same for hospitality as it was for social work using the words like kindly, I'm strongly in strongly interested in. And so that's how I know that there are certain patterns that employers will see, but it is an excellent tool for doing research.
Jonathan Singer: So my my first job was working for the child and adolescent psychiatric emergency team. And when I got the job, I didn't even think at all about salary negotiation. I was just glad to have a job. I've since learned that one can negotiate salary. So, how should social workers think about salary negotiation?.
[00:13:10] Michelle Woods: Sure. Sure. So, you're not alone. That is a common story that I hear from students and alumni who uh are invested in their job search and they end up getting an an offer and they think they have to accept right away and they don't have uh the ability to take the time to negotiate and that's absolutely incorrect. You as a potential employee are invested in not only doing a great job for an employer but being recognized for the work that you do and that is your salary. And so you should always negotiate your salary when you go in and uh you are in onboarding uh or trying to accept an offer um with an an organization.
And um let me tell you a a story. Uh we had uh one alum who uh actually two stories. So one alum who came in and and uh had reported that they got this really great uh job uh as a school social worker with a charter school. Part of the position had their salary and then um they were concerned about uh benefits. Benefits did not come because it was a charter school and also they uh weren't offered supervision as part of of the their uh job and so they accepted. They didn't think that they had the ability to try to negotiate some of those additional like benefits and supervision. And so u we were talking about that and I was like yes you do you can certainly uh do that and her a friend who got hired a a couple of months after where same program negotiated and was able to get additional benefits, a bonus and money for supervision as part. So, one did not could did not uh negotiate and thought they could not and then the other took the time to do that and got those additional same job same about the same time.
So, remarkable different outcomes there and then I have another story of an alum who um did not negotiate and but could and uh they realized that within their market the market rate they had the ability to add about $2 to $3,000 more for their starting salary because the employer just gave them the bottom uh amount, the starting salary bottom amount. They accepted it. Didn't think they had to negotiate. But they could and realize that they left on the table if it was $2,000 more over five years, they left $10,000 off the table for their salary right there by just not negotiating. So, always negotiate and take the time to prepare for the uh negotiating process. So, if you're not familiar with negotiation, which a lot of social workers aren't, they're afraid to to do that. And um one they think that employers are not expecting them to negotiate and that is a part of the employment process, the hiring process.
You can negotiate so you're not doing anything that other job seekers aren't doing. So you always want to negotiate and you want to practice beforehand. Take the time to do that. Take the time to if you're not familiar with um negotiating, go to to a farmers market or a sales like a um a treasure store or Salvation Army where you can kind of negotiate the price of different items and get in the habit of just going back and forth and being comfortable with having that conversation. But also take the time to research your market value before you go into an interview while you are preparing your documents like your cover letter and your resume. Take some time to research what the market value is for the jobs that you're applying to. And that can be done through informational interviewing, can be done for looking at uh public institutions that have like a universities, hospitals. They often have their salary grades and different um uh employment rates that they pay different levels of employers. So, you know what the starting salary is for different positions and you can look at similar positions to see what the rate is for the job that you're trying to apply to. Also, use your alumni association and your career services offices at your school of social work. We collect a lot of alumni data regarding employer salaries and oftentimes you can you circle back with that person have a conversation about different roles and the market rate that alumni are achieving within those different social work positions. So it it's important to make sure that you know the market rate for the positions that you're applying to.
So when you go in and you get a job offer and a lot of you will will do that and you'll get surprised um at at some point that you actually is working, that you you got the job, and they're offering you the position, and they're going to say that they're going to offer uh the position to you for x amount of money, and you're going to be excited because it happened. And so, you definitely want to take some time to think about the offer because that is at the point that you're going to start the negotiation. It doesn't start any time before you actually get the offer. So, once the offer happens, you say thank you and show your enthusiasm for the position and then ask for a couple of days to review the offer because that's when you're going to go back and look at all of the conversations and the research that you had regarding the market rate to see where that offer falls within the market rate for the job that you've been offered. So, is it high?. Is it low?. What type of room do you have to negotiate?.
And you also have some time to go and review benefits so that you are familiar with what are the health benefits, what a retirement, is there any type of relocation money that uh is part of the offer, a a bonus, a signing bonus. All of that you get a chance to review and then have a conversation with uh people with partners, people in your family about any of your specific needs and then uh once you ask for a couple of days or some time to review at that time you will circle back and uh go and talk to the employer about any negotiation you want to occur at that time. So your counter offer and also any adjustments to any of the relocation or benefits or or supervision that I kind of talked about. if you need money to help with your professional development. And then also taking time to negot to think about the negotiation and taking some time over several days to review gives you some time to write what you want to say and to be very specific with the employer about the details. And uh and then and you can practice.
A lot of times alumni will call me, they'll write down what they want to negotiate and then they'll practice with me before they call the employer back. And then that way they have a clear uh rationale for why they want the additional money or the adjustment in the benefit and offer. And then at that time, typically the employer will review what you're offer and typically say, give me a couple of days to see what I can do. And that's fine. That's it. That's that's a good sign because that means that you gave them something to think about. The other tip is uh try not to be nervous at this point because they want you. They gave you an offer. So, it means that they want to hire you and they're invested in in their jobs, their job search and having a great outcome. So, uh uh give them a couple of days days and think about it. And when they call you back, they will sometimes have a counter offer. They may not be able to do everything that you're asking, but they may be able to meet you halfway on some of your um uh counter offer your suggestions. And then at that time, if you've done the research, you can have an idea of what's acceptable to you and and whether or not you want to move forward uh with a job offer. And the other thing is always get everything in writing. So when you are at the final stages when everything has been kind of accepted and this is the final offer with this adjustment of benefits and relocation and all of that, make sure they follow it up with a written explanation of what you've agreed on so that um if anything happens in the interim because life happens. Somebody may end up not being there when you have your start date. And so you want to make sure that everything you've negotiated it has been written down and agreed upon and that you have a copy of it.
Jonathan Singer: That's great. Um, one quick followup. Is there any way of knowing when you see a salary, for example, if it is negotiable or not?.
Michelle Woods: It's all negotiable. Whether or not there's any movement in or accepting the what you're negotiating. That's some that can be a variable depending on the financial status of the organization. But one typically employers have a range that they can work with with each position and so they may have some wiggle room there. So it is always you always want to ask and negotiate. Uh the other if there not able to make any movement then they may say that I'm not able to offer you additional money at this time but maybe I can give you a signing bonus in ex in exchange for that or maybe at the six month or one year period of you um meeting with the organization and we're looking at your um annual review or after your probationary period maybe we can circle back and look at some negotiation at that time.
Jonathan Singer: So, I think the salary negotiation tips are so uh so insightful because is it's really about more than just the dollar amount. It's a whole sort of like what's the what's the package, right?. Um so, let's say that you've been in a job for a while. I remember I was in uh work worked for Austin Travis County MHMR for many years and I was I was thinking about like am I going to stay here the rest of my life?. People getting jobs other places. A lot of people got jobs for higher salaries. And so I was just trying to think that through, but it's it's hard when you're in a job to think about getting another job even if you're not happy. So do you have any tips or advice for kind of how to think about shifting careers or career trajectory over time?.
[00:25:35] Cindy Snell: Sure. Um I mean with a lot of alums that come back and are interested in either pivoting um or are just unhappy in the role they are currently and and just like you said, aren't sure kind of where to go from there. I can think of one person who had been in medical social work um since she graduated from um her MSW program, had done that for a while, and it just wasn't fitting her lifestyle anymore, and was unable to think of herself as anything but a medical social worker. You sort of identify yourself that way, and not only do you know nothing about other fields, but you can't even define yourself in a different way. And so, that's where self-assessment really comes into play. That's really important to spend some time figuring out what skills you have, what your values are, what's important to you, how work fits into the other aspects of your life, and then what is it about the current role that you want to take with you to the next thing, and what things you want to let go of.
So, in this particular case, the kind of fast pace of medical social work was getting tiring for her. She had kind of done it for too long. She liked some of the work that she did individually um with clients, but she had also remember doing some research um back when she was um in an MSW program and she was wondering if there were going to some ways that she could integrate that. Um, so I had her spend some time doing that self analysis trying to figure out what sort of keywords that she could identify her for herself. So as she started to look at other job opportunities, as she started to network, she had sort of a framework in which she was working. And so one of the um informational interviews she went on um she ended up identifying this opportunity at a university that had a research center um that was working on a new intervention around depression um and was wanting to apply that intervention to the college students there and track to see its effectiveness. So she had the opportunity to bring her expertise in depression um but kind of implement it in a new way and add this research piece um and so that was a great success story.
I can think of somebody else um that I met with about a month ago um and she said she was two years out of her MSW and she said to me I don't think I want to be a clinical social work anymore. I want to be macro. And I was like, okay. Um I think sometimes when you're at that breaking point and social workers can reach that sort of burnout point, you kind of want to throw everything away. You want to say, I don't want to do anything like what I'm doing now. And so we spent some time kind of unpacking that, asking some prompts that allowed her to be a little bit more reflective about what it was um that she wasn't happy about. Um in her case, she had worked in sexual assault since she was a gra undergrad and continued to do that work both through her MSW and um was currently doing that work and she literally just quit her job like she couldn't do it anymore and she said it was just getting to be too much and they also had asked her to carry a pager and that really changed things for her. Um it really meant that she couldn't create the sort of the boundaries that allowed her to do that intense work and she also shared with me that she had two other passions um that were that this pager uh was getting in the way of one she was a visual artist and she was also very committed to trauma-informed yoga and in her jobs before she was able to do those things on the side but um because of the stress and because of the kind of 247 she wasn't able to do that anymore.
Um we talked a little bit about um those other interests. Um I and about whether she wanted to throw the clinical piece away or not. And one of the critical things I asked her was whether she it was important to her to go on and get an advanced clinical license. And she said yes. And I said okay you know if that's one of your goals you're really going to have to figure out how to continue to do clinical social work until until you get that license. So, through the course of conversation, she said that there were aspects of working with clients that she really liked. Um, and she was trying to figure out ways that she could integrate all those three parts of herself into one job. Um, and she was getting offers to do some of that other trauma-informed work that she was having to turn down. And so, I suggested to her, maybe you don't need to find one job that integrates all of that. Maybe you can do these three things separately. And she just had this look of relief over her, like, I can do that. I don't have to find one job that in comforts all that. And said, we certainly can talk about clinical roles that you can have that could be trauma informed and you're allowed to kind of use your yoga informed, but you don't have to have all that in one job. And so that was a real relief to her. And so we talked about roles that she could play clinically um that she felt more comfortable in. So we talked about there was a um some part-time roles at a um at a university like she worked at before, but not in sexual assault. Um there was a local um university that was a women's college that really appealed to her or she started to look at private practices that had that sort of trauma-informed expressive therapy um component to it that allowed her to do that work.
Um so I sort of sent her on her way um to investigate some things and she came back about two weeks later and said that she was really happy that she had gotten an interview for the college job and was really happy with the way things were starting starting to develop um and and was moving forward clinically in a way that she didn't think she could do before. So I think it's important um throughout your lifetime as things change for you to take time to reflect on past jobs. Figure out what's working for you. Figure out whether this is still what you want to do, what might be missing, what might not be comfortable in ways that you could either change that in the place that you're in or whether that means pivoting to something else.
Jonathan Singer: So, thinking about switching careers, thinking about the, you know, the the the pieces of the jobs or the the activities that you like, it it made me think about this idea of um how you see yourself as a social worker and that made me think of this idea of branding which I know you talk about in the book.
[00:33:12] Jennifer Luna: Sure. Professional branding. It's interesting because sometimes social workers don't really like that term like they associate it with corporate America or something like that. So, uh over the years I've really tried to normalize professional branding in social work. The way I like to start start off with is just by entering the profession of social work, we already wear a brand. Social workers already have a brand coming in and usually it's not great. And so the most important thing for us to remember is we have to be very intentional about our brand. Secondly, anybody or everybody has a brand whether you want one or not. And so you may not think you've worked on your professional brand, but you have because everybody knows you by something. So, I try to encourage uh social workers to be very intentional by thinking about not only what they want people to remember them by, but also it's important to be authentic because if you're not authentic about your brand, then you'll be trying to be someone else.
And I also like people to think about lived experiences, which is so important. Uh we will hear a lot about branding and we'll hear uh people talk about your knowledge, skills, experience, all of that is very important. Uh knowledge areas could be broken up into both uh theoretical knowledge like maybe the clinical frameworks that you know, but also practical knowledge is very important too. If you're a supervisor, you probably don't want to have to teach uh somebody how to go get social security or or Medicaid, you want them to come in with that. So those complex systems is um an area of knowledge that sometimes we don't think about. But when we think about a brand, I can think of um several people uh throughout my career that I've worked with that have kind of been that go-to person for certain complex processes that I don't want to have to learn. Right?. So all of those things can be incorporated.
But another uh another issue that I found is a lot of times um people will have impostor syndrome for one reason or another and I don't even really like to call it that but for lack of better words uh oftentimes uh folks will come in and they'll think that um maybe uh because they're from a different culture or ability or disability or gender or socioeconomic background whatever you can always feel impostor syndrome and one thing I've recognized is that oftentimes what makes you feel that way is part of your brand and that's what people remember you by and I think it's something to embrace. Uh it's it's important and this is what where we go back to lived experiences um when I think about my own professional brand I grew up uh in El Paso and uh both my sisters went to um become business people and uh my father was in business and I decided to do cosmetology school for a couple years uh while I was in high school till I decided what I wanted to be and I I love cosmetology school because uh I love talking to people and uh actually won uh this will be a big surprise I won state championship for extemporaneous speaking and so I learned so much about myself that that I h maybe would not have known. And when I went to college, I I you know did the hair and nails as um side hustle type thing. But that is what made one of the things that made me want to go into social work because I was not even very good at those things, but I was really good. I had clients that would come back because they wanted to talk to me and I became a really great spokesperson for our beauty shop, which I know sounds silly, but um that lived experience was truly a part of my uh professional brand. So, I encourage you, you know, to think about what you did growing up, where you were in the family, if you were the oldest, middle child, the youngest, if you were in marching band or maybe ho ho a that's homeowners association 4. 4 Thank you. This is you know what this is the sign of be becom an adult when you get the 4 club mixed up with the HOA. Anyhow, you know, really, you know, reach back and think about, you know, not just uh what what you bring, but also, you know, what your lived experience.
And then I just have one other thing to say. Um, you know, oftentimes it's also good to look at people you admire and kind of see what they have done to intentionally work on their brand. And uh I I've kind of been doing this uh lately reinventing myself since I retired. Um because I was in the same job for almost 30 years and I you know kind of retired and I thought I know what I want to do but you know I'm not quite sure how to get there but I know who I want to be like. And uh I'll go back to my son again. We have a saying um when we're about to do something that's kind of anxiety-provoking we always say, uh, "go be her" or "go be him". And that has really been profound for me these past couple of years because I know what I want to be and I know who her is. I don't know who she is, but I know I want to be her.
Jonathan Singer: That's amazing. Thank you so much for being here and talking with us about career. This is so insightful. Um, and I really appreciate it.
Jennifer Luna/Michelle Woods/Cindy Snell: Thank you. Thank you for having us on. Yes, it's been my pleasure. Thank you so much.
References and resources
Luna, J., Snell, C., & Woods, M. (2024). The Social Work Career Guidebook: How to Land Your Ideal Job and Build a Legacy. NASW Press.
APA (7th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2025, December 19). #149 - Getting the social work job you want: Interview with Jennifer Luna, Michelle Woods, and Cindy Snell [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from http://www.socialworkpodcast.com/2025/12/career.html
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